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  1. #1
    Grandmaster turnandshoot4's Avatar

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    Idolatry in the training community

    What role does idolatry play in the training industry?

    So much is pushed out about an instructor having a resume. Were they a navy seal, cop, MMA fighter, grand master, black belt, etc?

    Rarely does someone ask if they can teach. Shouldn't this be in the equation? Somewhere near the top? Why isn't it? In the end, someone being able to teach isn't something to idolize. A sub 1 second draw is. A trident is. Tattoos and cool beard is. A youtube channel with lots of followers is. No one asked about Phil Jackson's illustrious career as a basketball player. Yet he made better basketball players better than he could ever be. Isn't this our goal as instructors? Ultimately, it would lead to less "street cred" because we aren't top dog anymore. Curiously, this isn't the case in any other sport arena. Boxing coaches push out awesome boxers all the time that didn't do much at a pro level. Where is the disconnect for those IN the industry?

    People starting out firearms training schools is a good thing. Yes, you can throw a rock and hit one. That being said waiting for PatMac (or pick your other national level trainers) to teach the masses is the wrong approach. While the person that has been shooting for 2 years might not be the BEST to start a school they are better than the other option. (Limited opportunities like it was in the 00s) These people are usually local, available, and affordable.

    While we get in purity battles what actually matters gets lost in the shuffle and that is who we are actually doing this for. At the end of the day there just aren't enough of the guys with relevant experience that can/will teach those that want to learn. In that vacuum some concessions have to be made. At one point learning from the Gracie/Fadda family was the only way to learn jiu jitsu. That had to end for it to grow. I believe we are there now as a firearms training collective.

    Thoughts anyone?
    So low speed I'm in park.

  2. #2
    Grandmaster turnandshoot4's Avatar

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    This admittedly is a spinoff from the "real vs fake" thread.
    So low speed I'm in park.

  3. #3
    Master Twangbanger's Avatar

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    How do you establish objectively that "somebody can teach?"



  4. #4
    Grandmaster turnandshoot4's Avatar

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    People learn from the class?
    So low speed I'm in park.

  5. #5
    Master Ziggidy's Avatar

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    Interesting. I also believe much has to do with the students ability to learn. Some students learn regardless of the teacher. Some teachers stink regardless of the student. Sort of like the question, what would you rather have, wisdom or expertise?

    I remember taking chemistry in college. The first attempt resulted in me dropping the class before I failed. I tried again and had a different teacher. We were told the first day of class that we would be graded on what the teacher "thought we new" and not necessarily how we graded. It was a great class and I actually learned (retained) much more.
    NRA - Life

  6. #6
    Grandmaster
    Coach's Avatar

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    You need to be able to teach in order to do a good job as a firearms instructor. But I think you also need to be able to shoot. I think you should be able to provide good demonstrations of skills for your students or clients. I do not think you need to be a National Champion or have won multiple gun fights, but there has to be some level of competency. Defining what it is could lead us off into the weeds, and that is not what I want to talk about at this time. But I think it is a talk worth having.

    So let's talk about teaching. I think good teaching and good coaching are the same thing. You pick the topic, skills or subject and a good coach and good teacher will make the class better, and drastically so. I have known many good teachers of academic subjects that were pretty terrible coaches in sports. But I still stand by my previous statement. I think when you boil teaching all down to gravy it is simply being able to explain the topic in simple terms that everyone understands. Being able to dissect the topic down to the essentials and explain the who, what, when, where, how and why so that the client understands. Then if it is a hands on task show them.

    In my mind everyone who understands the topics should be able to teach it to others. For many years I operated with that mindset. Anyone can teach. In the last ten years it has become obvious to me that not only can everyone not teach, but that most people cannot teach or coach. I cannot really explain why. I was recently (this month) in a class with 12 perspective instructors that were asked to stand up and talk about any topic other than firearms that they had expert knowledge about for 3-5 minutes. Four the the twelve were able to do it. WTF?

    I think stage fright is a big part of the problem. People are afraid to speak in public in front of more than a handful of people. One year at the high school where I work we were giving the American Legion History and Government test. There were a handful of Legion guys there to help monitor the rooms and prevent cheating. Three different combat veterans were ****ting their pants being in a room of high school kids and plainly told me so. WTF. I saw in the instructor certification class stage fright chew up and spit out several people.

    I have seen people who were very good at things and not be able to explain how to do it to other who wanted to learn. Phil Jackson, Bob Knight, Lou Holtz were not high performing athletes but they knew what to do and how to get others to do it. Once those three got to a certain point in their coaching career they had credibility. I do not know how hard it was for them to establish that. There might be a huge difference in their early coaching and the mid point.

    There are a crap load of career teachers who cannot teach. That is what education is forcing collaboration and teaming and PLC's and TC's. So the strong teachers can help overcome the weaklings and bad hires.

    There are lots of certified instructors out there who cannot shoot and who cannot teach. Buyer beware.

    I also think a shooting instructor should be able to diagnose why the student is missing and get them on target pretty fast. Over coming the fear causing a flinch could be something else and take more time, but the instructor should be able to improve that on the spot as well. But you have to know how to do those things.
    No one is stronger or more dangerous than the man who can harness his emotions.

    www.BrightFirearmsTraining.com

    abright@ccrtc.com

    Rangemaster Certified Instructor
    USCCA Certified Instructor
    USPSA Range Officer

  7. #7
    Sharpshooter

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    Ditto on what Coach said.

  8. #8
    Expert jsx1043's Avatar

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    The question is, "Can they do it in flip flops?"



    Social media gun idolatry should be added to the list of deadly sins. It has gotten out of hand.
    VIRTUS JUNXIT MORS NON SEPARABIT

  9. #9
    Grandmaster turnandshoot4's Avatar

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    Why people can't coach or teach -

    Watching John Danaher videos helped me understand more of why I can watch someone and be able to do it. The devil is in the details. Instead of understanding the gross movements (where most people stop) is fine but being able to watch the small details really changes the technique. Danaher goes on and on about the details, which makes it boring for me, but I already saw them.

    Coach hit the nail on the head on being able to dissect the technique. There is much more than "just shoot the target" for someone that has never done it.
    So low speed I'm in park.

  10. #10
    I still care....Really
    churchmouse's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coach View Post
    You need to be able to teach in order to do a good job as a firearms instructor. But I think you also need to be able to shoot. I think you should be able to provide good demonstrations of skills for your students or clients. I do not think you need to be a National Champion or have won multiple gun fights, but there has to be some level of competency. Defining what it is could lead us off into the weeds, and that is not what I want to talk about at this time. But I think it is a talk worth having.

    So let's talk about teaching. I think good teaching and good coaching are the same thing. You pick the topic, skills or subject and a good coach and good teacher will make the class better, and drastically so. I have known many good teachers of academic subjects that were pretty terrible coaches in sports. But I still stand by my previous statement. I think when you boil teaching all down to gravy it is simply being able to explain the topic in simple terms that everyone understands. Being able to dissect the topic down to the essentials and explain the who, what, when, where, how and why so that the client understands. Then if it is a hands on task show them.

    In my mind everyone who understands the topics should be able to teach it to others. For many years I operated with that mindset. Anyone can teach. In the last ten years it has become obvious to me that not only can everyone not teach, but that most people cannot teach or coach. I cannot really explain why. I was recently (this month) in a class with 12 perspective instructors that were asked to stand up and talk about any topic other than firearms that they had expert knowledge about for 3-5 minutes. Four the the twelve were able to do it. WTF?

    I think stage fright is a big part of the problem. People are afraid to speak in public in front of more than a handful of people. One year at the high school where I work we were giving the American Legion History and Government test. There were a handful of Legion guys there to help monitor the rooms and prevent cheating. Three different combat veterans were ****ting their pants being in a room of high school kids and plainly told me so. WTF. I saw in the instructor certification class stage fright chew up and spit out several people.

    I have seen people who were very good at things and not be able to explain how to do it to other who wanted to learn. Phil Jackson, Bob Knight, Lou Holtz were not high performing athletes but they knew what to do and how to get others to do it. Once those three got to a certain point in their coaching career they had credibility. I do not know how hard it was for them to establish that. There might be a huge difference in their early coaching and the mid point.

    There are a crap load of career teachers who cannot teach. That is what education is forcing collaboration and teaming and PLC's and TC's. So the strong teachers can help overcome the weaklings and bad hires.

    There are lots of certified instructors out there who cannot shoot and who cannot teach. Buyer beware.

    I also think a shooting instructor should be able to diagnose why the student is missing and get them on target pretty fast. Over coming the fear causing a flinch could be something else and take more time, but the instructor should be able to improve that on the spot as well. But you have to know how to do those things.
    Everyone has a different level of "Understanding" what you are trying to teach them. How we address those people to get through to them is the sign of a good teacher/coach.

    AKA..Thor. Odin son. God of thunder.
    But you can call me John.....Force.

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