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  1. #1
    Plinker Rebel Jack's Avatar
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    Union Belle refuses to holster. Thoughts?

    So the Old Lady carries a 3rd gen Glock 26. No holster. She just does the "ghetto tuck" (tucks it inside the waist band, but at the small of her back.) Gun is loaded with one in the pipe. So my point of contention with her is that I don't feel like the gun is secure, or the trigger is protected from an accidental discharge. Her point is she's never had an issue in all the time she's carried it and the 12 years, many deployed, as an MP, doing the same thing with her issued M9. It just works for her and always has. God but it sticks in my craw to see it and we're both stubborn as a mule on a hot july night.

    So what's your guy's opinions on this? If it ain't broke, don't fix it? Is there a law stating the firearm must be officially holstered or do I need to build that bridge and get over it? Just because nothings happened yet, doesn't mean it will, but how do I argue that to a woman who's done it deployed into combat zones? I need real points to argue here. Maybe some real world examples of the ghetto tuck gone wrong. If you're shocked by this apparent irresponsibility with a firearm and arguing your points based on that indignation, it ain't gonna fly. "But that's the way it's always been done, because...reasons!", I've meekly blurted out with no sense of authority or confidence. She picks up on that like a blue tick hound on a wounded rabbit. No dice. I need to be able to physically point out a deal breaking, factual narrative and it's damn hard to surmount the 13 years of "that's the way it's been, and with no issues" I'm up against here.

    Or maybe I need to go buy some cheese to go with that whine.
    Last edited by Rebel Jack; 09-02-2017 at 10:11.

  2. #2
    Grandmaster MCgrease08's Avatar
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    Wow. Small of back carry with no holster. That wouldn't fly with me either if that was my wife's preferred method of carry. I can't believe that would have been a sanctioned and approved method during her days as an MP either.

    There are plenty of stories out there of people shooting themselves using no holster with pistol shoved in a waistband. Plaxico Burress comes to mind.

    You might try suggesting the Raven Vanguard. It basically covers the trigger guard and that's it. It's attached to the pants with a drawstring and the "holster" comes off the trigger guard on the draw. If she would move to something like that it would give you at least some peace of mind.



    In fact you can find them for around $20. Just order one for her as a "gift."
    Last edited by MCgrease08; 09-02-2017 at 10:52.
    If I had a gun for every ace I have drawn, I could arm a town the size of Abilene.

  3. #3
    Hi, former military, security contractor, and current LEO in Homicide & Robbery. I get to see a lot of people shot, robbed, etc and get to see what works well and what doesn't. I'd not carry without a holster.

    No law says it must be holstered.

    Issues with no holster carry:

    1) No retention. If you are assaulted, say knocked down from behind, the weapon isn't secure and can hit the dirt. Now you're behind the curve AND an unsecured weapon is in play. It's also impossible to properly trap the gun in the case it's spotted and targeted for a gun grab. I show a video in my class of an incident in Indy where a guy drops his gun without realizing it while paying at a gas station, someone else spots it, and things rapidly devolve from there. I can't find the online video right now, but there's one outside of Indiana where the guy in front is in line at the register, the guy in back spots his carry gun in the small of the back, and then attempts to grab it. A violent struggle ensues and the gun owner loses. It's been posted on INGO before.

    2) Increased risk of AD. Particularly with a striker fired gun, bunched up clothing, a loose cord from a sweat shirt, etc. can get in the trigger guard and cause a discharge. I have seen the aftermath of many accidental discharges from no holster guns, but it's usually pocket carry. Sometimes it's in the waistband. Last year we had a guy who died after shooting himself in the groin with his no-holster appendix carry.

    3) Inconsistency. One function of a holster is to keep your gun from shifting and migrating. When it's always at the same angle at the same place, you have a more consistent and faster draw and you shoot better as you get a firing grip the first time you touch the gun.

    Arguing from a position of logic may not be your best course, particularly if she believes her own experiences to date encompass the entirety of the carry world. if you've never been in, or seen, a violent struggle over a firearm then you might think your toting a gun in situation normal is all there is. You may not want to accept that what works in situation normal can get you hurt when things are abnormal.

    Maybe try and explain it from a position of you love and care about her, you are afraid for her and it weighs on your mind, so as a favor to you and to reduce your fears try this...and give her an MTAC hybrid holster or the like.
    My nuts are the great uniter.

  4. #4
    Plinker Rebel Jack's Avatar
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    Yeah I sincerely doubt the army was cool with the "look mom, no hands!" technique but my assumption was always they had more pressing matters in Fallujah. Honestly, i've tried pointing out the garment bunching up in the trigger guard AD, with a demonstration utilizing a snap cap, but I just couldn't make it happen. Her being 5'5" and 117lb. with fitted clothing doesn't really help my case from that angle. And that dat gum c-clip, or whatever they brought onto the market didn't do me any favors either. The point regarding retention in a struggle is valid though in this situation. I should try to find a video depicting the outcome under these circumstances. The only time i've seen anyone come at her though, she put them on the ground faster than I could figure out what was happening. It's not always going to be like that but hell if I could convince her of it. Point 3) you made regarding consistency is an excellent one and I'm ashamed to say I had never really thought to work that angle. All the same, that just means she likely hadn't considered it either, although with the way she wears her jeans, that sucker doesn't shift. At all. But a holster would giver her a consistent position and place to initially "plug in." I think in the end I'll have her custom fitted for an ITW abdominal tuck as she's expressed a vague interest in that before, after watching some videos on YouTube from Talon Sei. I hate to say it, but If it costs enough she'll feel too guilty over the cash expenditure not to wear it. If I can get one that's zero bulk and so comfortable she doesn't even know it's there, she'll be idk, 90% sold. I could see her griping over having to out it on every morning. I'll have to come up with some sort of condom metaphor when I'm pitching the idea cause I'm classy like that and it's pretty much expected by now. I'd hate to disappoint.
    Last edited by Rebel Jack; 09-02-2017 at 12:24.

  5. #5
    Sharpshooter
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    Quote Originally Posted by MCgrease08 View Post
    Wow. Small of back carry with no holster. That wouldn't fly with me either if that was my wife's preferred method of carry. I can't believe that would have been a sanctioned and approved method during her days as an MP either.

    There are plenty of stories out there of people shooting themselves using no holster with pistol shoved in a waistband. Plaxico Burress comes to mind.

    You might try suggesting the Raven Vanguard. It basically covers the trigger guard and that's it. It's attached to the pants with a drawstring and the "holster" comes off the trigger guard on the draw. If she would move to something like that it would give you at least some peace of mind.



    In fact you can find them for around $20. Just order one for her as a "gift."
    +1.

  6. #6
    Grandmaster actaeon277's Avatar
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    It happened to me.... yet.
    Heard that a lot at work.
    Often, in a safety video from a worker that is missing a limb, lost vision, or severely burned... trying to get people to listen and NOT do what they do.
    If someone got hurt EVERY TIME they did something unsafe, THEY'D NEVER DO ANYTHING UNSAFE.
    Instead, it usually just shifts the odds.
    And when the odds catch up, someone ends up crying.
    "Una salus victis nullam sperare salutem."

    "A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and substantial reason' why he should be permitted to exercise his rights. The rights existence is all the reason he needs." Benson Everett Legg - Woolard v. Sheridan

    If you're a noob, develop thick skin, and read the FAQs

    Actaeon - act'-tee-on
    The death of Actaeon - http://www.paleothea.com/Myths/Actaeon.html

  7. #7
    Tired Of Winning
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebel Jack View Post
    So the Old Lady carries a 3rd gen Glock 26. No holster. She just does the "ghetto tuck" (tucks it inside the waist band, but at the small of her back.) Gun is loaded with one in the pipe. So my point of contention with her is that I don't feel like the gun is secure, or the trigger is protected from an accidental discharge. Her point is she's never had an issue in all the time she's carried it and the 12 years, many deployed, as an MP, doing the same thing with her issued M9. It just works for her and always has. God but it sticks in my craw to see it and we're both stubborn as a mule on a hot july night.

    So what's your guy's opinions on this? If it ain't broke, don't fix it? Is there a law stating the firearm must be officially holstered or do I need to build that bridge and get over it? Just because nothings happened yet, doesn't mean it will, but how do I argue that to a woman who's done it deployed into combat zones? I need real points to argue here. Maybe some real world examples of the ghetto tuck gone wrong. If you're shocked by this apparent irresponsibility with a firearm and arguing your points based on that indignation, it ain't gonna fly. "But that's the way it's always been done, because...reasons!", I've meekly blurted out with no sense of authority or confidence. She picks up on that like a blue tick hound on a wounded rabbit. No dice. I need to be able to physically point out a deal breaking, factual narrative and it's damn hard to surmount the 13 years of "that's the way it's been, and with no issues" I'm up against here.

    Or maybe I need to go buy some cheese to go with that whine.


    Wish I had something further for you on the stubborn female thing. Sorry, my experience winning them over is similar to yours. I'm guessing the chance of getting her to attend a female firearms class with a female instructor is slim, right?

    I just hope the Old Lady somehow comes around on her half-assed approach to safe firearms handling.
    -----------------------------------------------
    Done, done, and Iím on to the next one...
    -----------------------------------------------

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Rebel Jack View Post
    Her point is she's never had an issue in all the time she's carried it and the 12 years, many deployed, as an MP, doing the same thing with her issued M9. It just works for her and always has.
    This is one of those things that works well until it doesn't, and when it doesn't, it may well be too late for her to change her ways.
    Government and pedophiles both practice buggering those powerless to defend themselves.

  9. #9
    Grandmaster jbombelli's Avatar
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    I hope she doesn't slip on some ice this winter and destroy her spine by landing on her back.
    It happens sometimes, people just explode. Natural causes.

  10. #10
    When you change platforms, "xy" years of deployed experience resets to zero in my opinion, at least as far as operational specifics are concerned. An M9 with DA first shot is not the same as a Glock. She shouldn't have been doing it with the beretta, but her good luck isn't going to be improved by halving the pull weight.

    My advice is to bone up on your first aid skills. If logic is pointless with her, and an extra bung hole is the only thing that will make her see the light...we're probably wasting our time discussing holsters. My dad is the same way. Holsters and seat belts just slow you down...lol.
    Last edited by Twangbanger; 09-04-2017 at 15:34.

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