Union Belle refuses to holster. Thoughts?

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  • Rebel Jack

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    So the Old Lady carries a 3rd gen Glock 26. No holster. She just does the "ghetto tuck" (tucks it inside the waist band, but at the small of her back.) Gun is loaded with one in the pipe. So my point of contention with her is that I don't feel like the gun is secure, or the trigger is protected from an accidental discharge. Her point is she's never had an issue in all the time she's carried it and the 12 years, many deployed, as an MP, doing the same thing with her issued M9. It just works for her and always has. God but it sticks in my craw to see it and we're both stubborn as a mule on a hot july night.

    So what's your guy's opinions on this? If it ain't broke, don't fix it? Is there a law stating the firearm must be officially holstered or do I need to build that bridge and get over it? Just because nothings happened yet, doesn't mean it will, but how do I argue that to a woman who's done it deployed into combat zones? I need real points to argue here. Maybe some real world examples of the ghetto tuck gone wrong. If you're shocked by this apparent irresponsibility with a firearm and arguing your points based on that indignation, it ain't gonna fly. "But that's the way it's always been done, because...reasons!", I've meekly blurted out with no sense of authority or confidence. She picks up on that like a blue tick hound on a wounded rabbit. No dice. I need to be able to physically point out a deal breaking, factual narrative and it's damn hard to surmount the 13 years of "that's the way it's been, and with no issues" I'm up against here.

    Or maybe I need to go buy some cheese to go with that whine.
     
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    MCgrease08

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    Wow. Small of back carry with no holster. That wouldn't fly with me either if that was my wife's preferred method of carry. I can't believe that would have been a sanctioned and approved method during her days as an MP either.

    There are plenty of stories out there of people shooting themselves using no holster with pistol shoved in a waistband. Plaxico Burress comes to mind.

    You might try suggesting the Raven Vanguard. It basically covers the trigger guard and that's it. It's attached to the pants with a drawstring and the "holster" comes off the trigger guard on the draw. If she would move to something like that it would give you at least some peace of mind.

    RCS1__90321.1387498299.380.380.jpg


    In fact you can find them for around $20. Just order one for her as a "gift."
     
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    BehindBlueI's

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    Hi, former military, security contractor, and current LEO in Homicide & Robbery. I get to see a lot of people shot, robbed, etc and get to see what works well and what doesn't. I'd not carry without a holster.

    No law says it must be holstered.

    Issues with no holster carry:

    1) No retention. If you are assaulted, say knocked down from behind, the weapon isn't secure and can hit the dirt. Now you're behind the curve AND an unsecured weapon is in play. It's also impossible to properly trap the gun in the case it's spotted and targeted for a gun grab. I show a video in my class of an incident in Indy where a guy drops his gun without realizing it while paying at a gas station, someone else spots it, and things rapidly devolve from there. I can't find the online video right now, but there's one outside of Indiana where the guy in front is in line at the register, the guy in back spots his carry gun in the small of the back, and then attempts to grab it. A violent struggle ensues and the gun owner loses. It's been posted on INGO before.

    2) Increased risk of AD. Particularly with a striker fired gun, bunched up clothing, a loose cord from a sweat shirt, etc. can get in the trigger guard and cause a discharge. I have seen the aftermath of many accidental discharges from no holster guns, but it's usually pocket carry. Sometimes it's in the waistband. Last year we had a guy who died after shooting himself in the groin with his no-holster appendix carry.

    3) Inconsistency. One function of a holster is to keep your gun from shifting and migrating. When it's always at the same angle at the same place, you have a more consistent and faster draw and you shoot better as you get a firing grip the first time you touch the gun.

    Arguing from a position of logic may not be your best course, particularly if she believes her own experiences to date encompass the entirety of the carry world. if you've never been in, or seen, a violent struggle over a firearm then you might think your toting a gun in situation normal is all there is. You may not want to accept that what works in situation normal can get you hurt when things are abnormal.

    Maybe try and explain it from a position of you love and care about her, you are afraid for her and it weighs on your mind, so as a favor to you and to reduce your fears try this...and give her an MTAC hybrid holster or the like.
     

    Rebel Jack

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    Yeah I sincerely doubt the army was cool with the "look mom, no hands!" technique but my assumption was always they had more pressing matters in Fallujah. Honestly, i've tried pointing out the garment bunching up in the trigger guard AD, with a demonstration utilizing a snap cap, but I just couldn't make it happen. Her being 5'5" and 117lb. with fitted clothing doesn't really help my case from that angle. And that dat gum c-clip, or whatever they brought onto the market didn't do me any favors either. The point regarding retention in a struggle is valid though in this situation. I should try to find a video depicting the outcome under these circumstances. The only time i've seen anyone come at her though, she put them on the ground faster than I could figure out what was happening. It's not always going to be like that but hell if I could convince her of it. Point 3) you made regarding consistency is an excellent one and I'm ashamed to say I had never really thought to work that angle. All the same, that just means she likely hadn't considered it either, although with the way she wears her jeans, that sucker doesn't shift. At all. But a holster would giver her a consistent position and place to initially "plug in." I think in the end I'll have her custom fitted for an ITW abdominal tuck as she's expressed a vague interest in that before, after watching some videos on YouTube from Talon Sei. I hate to say it, but If it costs enough she'll feel too guilty over the cash expenditure not to wear it. If I can get one that's zero bulk and so comfortable she doesn't even know it's there, she'll be idk, 90% sold. I could see her griping over having to out it on every morning. I'll have to come up with some sort of condom metaphor when I'm pitching the idea cause I'm classy like that and it's pretty much expected by now. I'd hate to disappoint.
     
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    CZ evo3

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    Wow. Small of back carry with no holster. That wouldn't fly with me either if that was my wife's preferred method of carry. I can't believe that would have been a sanctioned and approved method during her days as an MP either.

    There are plenty of stories out there of people shooting themselves using no holster with pistol shoved in a waistband. Plaxico Burress comes to mind.

    You might try suggesting the Raven Vanguard. It basically covers the trigger guard and that's it. It's attached to the pants with a drawstring and the "holster" comes off the trigger guard on the draw. If she would move to something like that it would give you at least some peace of mind.

    RCS1__90321.1387498299.380.380.jpg


    In fact you can find them for around $20. Just order one for her as a "gift."

    +1.
     

    actaeon277

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    It happened to me.... yet.
    Heard that a lot at work.
    Often, in a safety video from a worker that is missing a limb, lost vision, or severely burned... trying to get people to listen and NOT do what they do.
    If someone got hurt EVERY TIME they did something unsafe, THEY'D NEVER DO ANYTHING UNSAFE.
    Instead, it usually just shifts the odds.
    And when the odds catch up, someone ends up crying.
     

    bwframe

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    So the Old Lady carries a 3rd gen Glock 26. No holster. She just does the "ghetto tuck" (tucks it inside the waist band, but at the small of her back.) Gun is loaded with one in the pipe. So my point of contention with her is that I don't feel like the gun is secure, or the trigger is protected from an accidental discharge. Her point is she's never had an issue in all the time she's carried it and the 12 years, many deployed, as an MP, doing the same thing with her issued M9. It just works for her and always has. God but it sticks in my craw to see it and we're both stubborn as a mule on a hot july night.

    So what's your guy's opinions on this? If it ain't broke, don't fix it? Is there a law stating the firearm must be officially holstered or do I need to build that bridge and get over it? Just because nothings happened yet, doesn't mean it will, but how do I argue that to a woman who's done it deployed into combat zones? I need real points to argue here. Maybe some real world examples of the ghetto tuck gone wrong. If you're shocked by this apparent irresponsibility with a firearm and arguing your points based on that indignation, it ain't gonna fly. "But that's the way it's always been done, because...reasons!", I've meekly blurted out with no sense of authority or confidence. She picks up on that like a blue tick hound on a wounded rabbit. No dice. I need to be able to physically point out a deal breaking, factual narrative and it's damn hard to surmount the 13 years of "that's the way it's been, and with no issues" I'm up against here.

    Or maybe I need to go buy some cheese to go with that whine.

    sling-blade-i-like-the-way-you-talk1.gif


    Wish I had something further for you on the stubborn female thing. Sorry, my experience winning them over is similar to yours. :dunno: I'm guessing the chance of getting her to attend a female firearms class with a female instructor is slim, right?

    I just hope the Old Lady somehow comes around on her half-assed approach to safe firearms handling. ;)
     

    IndyDave1776

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    Her point is she's never had an issue in all the time she's carried it and the 12 years, many deployed, as an MP, doing the same thing with her issued M9. It just works for her and always has.

    This is one of those things that works well until it doesn't, and when it doesn't, it may well be too late for her to change her ways.
     

    Twangbanger

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    When you change platforms, "xy" years of deployed experience resets to zero in my opinion, at least as far as operational specifics are concerned. An M9 with DA first shot is not the same as a Glock. She shouldn't have been doing it with the beretta, but her good luck isn't going to be improved by halving the pull weight.

    My advice is to bone up on your first aid skills. If logic is pointless with her, and an extra bung hole is the only thing that will make her see the light...we're probably wasting our time discussing holsters. My dad is the same way. Holsters and seat belts just slow you down...lol.
     
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    Cameramonkey

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    SHE. WILL. NOT. LISTEN. TO. YOU. Mine is the same way. Luckily my big issue is much more harmless. (she aims the side mirrors on the car in so far the body of the car takes up literally 1/2 the mirror, creating huge blind spots. She refuses to change.)

    Now that we have that straight. Take her to speak with someone she feels is an authority on the matter. A respected trainer. Let him explain the difference between a glock without an appropriate safety for holsterless carry and a M9 with a safety catch and a heavy a** DA pull. Go for lessons, give him a heads-up of your concerns ahead of time, and let him see it and call her out on it. An intervention by an expert is your only hope.

    Even better. Buy her a Crossbreed Supertuck. She can still carry how she wants, without bulk. That Raven gizmo might also work for her. She just HAS to cover that trigger. For all practical purposes of this discussion, a Glock has no safety. You just cant carry a safety-less pistol without a covered trigger IMHO.

    But even buying her a tool to make it safe wont likely help unless she has been convinced by someone she trusts and respects.
     

    VERT

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    You might look into picking up a Sticky holster or a Remora. They are not what I recommend for carrying a gun but they do work. At least it covers the trigger and will work to keep the gun in place with snug clothing. Plus I bet it will be more comfortable then a an uncovered gun digging into ones skin. They are only $25.

    Here is a review I found with a lady doing just what was mentioned in the OP. At least the trigger is covered and the holster must be removed from the body for the gun to be placed it it. Should greatly reduce the chances of an inadvertent bang which is now very possible.

    http://www.guns.com/review/gear-review-sticky-holster/
     
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    churchmouse

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    They will not listen. They just will not.
    Now if one of her girl friends says it is wrong/dangerous she will most likely listen.

    My spouse pays attention at the range. Beyond that its her world.
     

    Cameramonkey

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    You might look into picking up a Sticky holster or a Remora. They are not what I recommend for carrying a gun but they do work. At least it covers the trigger and will work to keep the gun in place with snug clothing. Plus I bet it will be more comfortable then a an uncovered gun digging into ones skin. They are only $25.

    This is my goto for my G42 when it goes into a pocket.

    And da Mouse makes a point. Depending on how well she meshes with other women (either she is catty or trusts them more than men) you might also look into a female trainer like Tami. She is a good instructor from what I hear.
    https://www.wc-defenseinstitute.com/
     

    repeter1977

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    Unfortunately you won't be able to make that point and help. Although you could start leaving articles around about ADs with no holsters and or bad holsters. Plenty of those to find.
    And, she is lucky, in all my MP units heaven forbid you not have a holster. As in you and a supervisor would be getting smoked. And no idea how she could have the pistol tucked like that with body armor right over or even partially covered by the armor. Unless it was around the FOB, and why would you try that in PTs, as they barely hold keys without falling down? Not saying it couldn't be done, just saying that the holster always made it easier.
     

    halfmileharry

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    After pondering a few hours on this I have come to this conclusion:
    1: she's a female and therefore you're just wasting your male sanity on her to change her mind.
    2: deployed, MP, and has been carrying for years. She ain't gonna change. She already knows everything to be known.
    3: This one is just a guess. You need better health insurance. She's wanting an ass lift and it's the only way the damned INS co will pay for it. IF you're lucky she'll order a bra holster on line and get one for a Glock 34.
     

    2A_Tom

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    SOB carry, ugggh! With a holster, it is a bad idea. There is no way to defend against a snatch. Without a holster there is no retention and no protection against an ND. As mentioned falling on it can cause a lot of pain.

    woman-with-a-handgun-tucked-into-the-back-of-her-jeans-e8fhfd.jpg
     

    Tactically Fat

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    SOB w/holster = mostly stupid.

    SOB w/o holster = quite stupid.

    SOB w/o holster + Glock + chambered round = trifecta of incredibly stupid. And irresponsible. And incredibly stupid. And irresponsible. And incredibly stupid. And incredibly irresponsible.
     

    VERT

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    Tell her you like her ass, and would hate for her to shoot it off.


    I hate to be "that guy", but we are all thinking it. OP mentioned pants fitted nice enough to lock a G26 firmly in place. Before passing judgement I think we need to see some pictures to Asscertain the situation. Hard to give advice otherwise.

    ** Yes I am joking. No I don't want to see the OP divorced. Butt come on!!!!
     
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