In Response to the comment : I think it's the height of arrogance to assume....

[IndySSD]

This thread created to attempt to derail the current TSA / Body cavity search over Here.

I think it's the height of arrogance to assume that the only negative consequence to come from this document dump is a mark on the reputation of the U.S. government.

Our forefathers must have been the most arrogant people in the world at the time then to believe that they could build a nation that could sustain and defend itself without outside interference.

I guess that makes me arrogant as well because I believe our country's current reliance on foreign products coupled with our international debt is sickening.

Not to say that we shouldn't have international trade, but we've become a society of consumers instead of producers and it makes me sad.

 

[dross]

This thread created to attempt to derail the current TSA / Body cavity search over Here.




Our forefathers must have been the most arrogant people in the world at the time then to believe that they could build a nation that could sustain and defend itself without outside interference.

Like our reliance on France during the Revolution? Like sending our most prominent men to France and then to England, even while the Constitution was being written?

I guess that makes me arrogant as well because I believe our country's current reliance on foreign products coupled with our international debt is sickening.

We "rely" on foreign products because we can get them cheaper. We can get them cheaper because labor costs are often cheaper elsewhere. Our labor costs too much to make certain kinds of items. Our people are too educated for certain types of work anymore. This is a natural and a good progression, not a bad one.

We have international debt because the dollar is still considered a great investment, simple as that. I don't want the government to be in as much debt as it's in, but what difference does it make who holds the debt?

Not to say that we shouldn't have international trade, but we've become a society of consumers instead of producers and it makes me sad.

That doesn't even make sense. This country has the highest levels of production in the world. We must produce in order to consume. This doesn't apply to the government, of course, but in business we produce so we may consume.

Some of the things you assume are bad are actually good. You assume either that some other way would be better, or that we can have the good without the bad.

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

This thread created to attempt to derail the current TSA / Body cavity search over Here.




Our forefathers must have been the most arrogant people in the world at the time then to believe that they could build a nation that could sustain and defend itself without outside interference.

I guess that makes me arrogant as well because I believe our country's current reliance on foreign products coupled with our international debt is sickening.

Not to say that we shouldn't have international trade, but we've become a society of consumers instead of producers and it makes me sad.

Without the "outside interference" of France, Spain, Portugal, France, Denmark and to a lessor extent Russia and Italy there would be no such thing as the United States of America. America won the Revolutionary war because its friends stepped up to fight a common enemy, England. Had it not been for the help of these nations we could not have won and today we would read about the rebellion whilst sipping tea, paying taxes and being so happy that guns were outlawed.

I don't necessarily disagree with your assessment of the trade deficit and the state of consumerism in the US, more from a practical state that at some point it crashes and then what? Most people couldn't chop wood to start a fire in the winter.

Lazy is what dooms this nation.

 

[IndySSD]

Like our reliance on France during the Revolution? Like sending our most prominent men to France and then to England, even while the Constitution was being written?

So are those the people we've relied on since the revolution? Our forefathers fought for the idea that one day we could be reliant on ourselves and defend ourselves from attackers. We've more than returned the favor to France.

Do you really think they would have needlessly formed these alliances to fight the Brittish? They only wanted to be self sufficient and that mindset is no longer prevalent.

And yes, I think it is BAD for our country to rely on help from outside to defend itself. Granted that's how we got started but that's not the vision our forefathers had, it was the necessary means to the end. There is no NEED to rely on others, it's a WANT by our society to not have to do "manual labor" and therefore since this is a relatively peaceful time in world history they can farm out the more "menial" work to poor countries.

Do you know blacksmiths, farriers and cobblers were some of the most respected people in a community in the old days? Why? Ask any soldier... you don't win wars with bare feet and empty hands. What's the first thing they teach you about surviving in a field situation? Mind your feet!

Our modern society thinks themselves too "Smart" to provide for themselves in my opinion and I disagree.

The smartest men I know make sure they are as self reliant as possible and not beholden to others for sustenance level goods or services any more than absolutely necessary.

We "rely" on foreign products because we can get them cheaper. We can get them cheaper because labor costs are often cheaper elsewhere. Our labor costs too much to make certain kinds of items. Our people are too educated for certain types of work anymore. This is a natural and a good progression, not a bad one.

Our people are too educated to run automotive companies? Our people are too educated to manufacture it's own building materials? Our people are too educated to build quality clothing or footwear?

You ever heard of the term "outsmarting yourself" ? I think the US is outsmarting itself by thinking the way you think.

As a society we NEED builders, we NEED providers. If you can't grow your own food or build your own equipment to build the homes, businesses and transportation to run your country then you're reliant on others to do these things for you. What if the majority of our builders do actually shut down, who do you think created military equipment during times of war or war preparations?

When you're no longer able to support your own country from within, you're subject to control from outside.

We have international debt because the dollar is still considered a great investment, simple as that. I don't want the government to be in as much debt as it's in, but what difference does it make who holds the debt?

We're in international debt because other countries who aren't in their infancy realize it is good to be "owed" because then you can influence decisions made by whom you are "owed".

There is a reason why the bible says "The borrower is a slave to the lender".

That doesn't even make sense. This country has the highest levels of production in the world. We must produce in order to consume. This doesn't apply to the government, of course, but in business we produce so we may consume.

Some of the things you assume are bad are actually good. You assume either that some other way would be better, or that we can have the good without the bad.

You can produce 50% of the worlds goods, by far overshadowing all other producers, but if you consume more than you produce by mass volumes, then you are reliant on other countries.

I personally only think it is bad that we are on the brink of not being able to (set up to) produce our own vehicles, clothing and potentially our own food.

If you think it's good to rely on other countries for transportation means, tools to build things, machinery to produce goods, clothing and food then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[IndySSD]

Without the "outside interference" of France, Spain, Portugal, France, Denmark and to a lessor extent Russia and Italy there would be no such thing as the United States of America. America won the Revolutionary war because its friends stepped up to fight a common enemy, England. Had it not been for the help of these nations we could not have won and today we would read about the rebellion whilst sipping tea, paying taxes and being so happy that guns were outlawed.

Wouldn't those countries be speaking German right now if it hadn't been for us? Men like my Grandfather who lived the dream of our forefathers of not only defending our country but stopping tyranny from spreading throughout our allies?


I'm not saying don't have allies, don't trade. I'm saying don't be RELIANT on trade or allies to provide for your own countries needs and defense.

I don't necessarily disagree with your assessment of the trade deficit and the state of consumerism in the US, more from a practical state that at some point it crashes and then what? Most people couldn't chop wood to start a fire in the winter.

Lazy is what dooms this nation.

Exactly

 

[machete]

This thread created to attempt to derail the current TSA / Body cavity search over Here.




Our forefathers must have been the most arrogant people in the world at the time then to believe that they could build a nation that could sustain and defend itself without outside interference.

I guess that makes me arrogant as well because I believe our country's current reliance on foreign products coupled with our international debt is sickening.

Not to say that we shouldn't have international trade, but we've become a society of consumers instead of producers and it makes me sad.

great post,,,but good luck...youll never get past the big government--big spending governmentists who act like little kids who cant play in their own yard and want to try to boss around everyone else...

I agree with you...its time to let the adults take over,,,and stop wasting out money overseas,,,while destroying freedom at home,,,by needing to keep a massive secretive government to protect the secrets of what were doing over there...

government only creates more problems,,,like all the freedoms weve lost so some governmentists can keep people from smoking plants...it wasnt enough to make the drugs illegal...they had to destroy the 4th Amendment to protect all the evil ways they use to keep the drugs illegal...

 

[printcraft]

Remember, too much economic isolation can be a bad thing too.

Just ask the north koreans about their independent stand.

Juche - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[machete]

Remember, too much economic isolation can be a bad thing too.

Just ask the north koreans about their independent stand.

Juche - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

how about the Swiss????

plus,,,how come every other country trades with the world as their form of international interaction,,,but were the only one that makes war with the rest of the world??? thats not the kind of international exchange thats going to help anyone out...

 

[IndySSD]

Remember, too much economic isolation can be a bad thing too.

Just ask the north koreans about their independent stand.

Juche - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Well, to be honest I think people need to think not ONLY like this... just MORE like this.

If their country actually cared about all people equally but prioritize the well being of their countrymen I think it would work. The problem is that their narcissistic dictators think "Lets do what's best for us and screw the rest of the world" instead of "Lets think globally but act locally first, globally second".

I just hate to see 90-95% of the current younger generations (everyone currently under 35 or 40) who don't know how to actually PRODUCE anything. It's sad.

 

[cburnworth]

debt is bad period!!!!!!!! personal or private, if you can't afford it you don't need it. when i was growing up I had an uncle that always got us kid's to help with construction projects, that is something that has been very valuable for me. I know my father doesn't know how to build or make anything. As my son & daughter get older I will be teaching them how to make & build stuff. most people these days don't even know how to change a flat tire, they would rather just call someone & pay for it.

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

Wouldn't those countries be speaking German right now if it hadn't been for us? Men like my Grandfather who lived the dream of our forefathers of not only defending our country but stopping tyranny from spreading throughout our allies?


I'm not saying don't have allies, don't trade. I'm saying don't be RELIANT on trade or allies to provide for your own countries needs and defense.


Exactly

Yep. On my first trip to Germany I was in a gas station getting directions. Between my poor German and his worse English we were getting somewhere. Three guys walked in. After about 30 seconds one of them asked me why I didn't speak German. My answer was because we won the f*****g war. Thought someone was going to die there that day.

As a country we have allies and friends for the same reason everyone personally has friends and allies. Sometimes you need to borrow $20. It helps if you pay it back someday. Sometimes you get into an argument that a third friend may be able to mediate and make sure you remain friends. I may be in the middle of cooking and need some eggs. I can run next door and get a resource I am lacking at that time. Allies and friends are valuable.

The concept of imperialism was about gaining control, not just access, to the world's resources. The Dutch took control of South Africa for its diamond and gold mines. The British took control of the Caribbean for spices and booze. Everyone tried to take control of the Americas for lumber.

Unfortunately even America does not have all the resources needed to do what we want to do. So we have to trade the things we have for the things we need. This reliance is a byproduct of specialization, which is exaserbated by globalization. Hell we can't even feed ourselves without foreign help. But no one else can either.

These are issues that haven't been brought to the fore until the last 20 years or so. The tried and true isolationist ostrich trick won't work. The rest of the world will pass us by; make us weak; and then take us over. It's happening now.

We need to use our strength to cut sweet deals. Tell the WTO how it's going to be. Not sit as equals with our lessors.

 

[jbombelli]

Really? The French helped us in the Revolution? I saw The Patriot. They sent ONE GUY, and that was when the war was already half over.












[/purple]

 

[Regionnus Rattis]

Without the "outside interference" of France, Spain, Portugal, France, Denmark and to a lessor extent Russia and Italy there would be no such thing as the United States of America. America won the Revolutionary war because its friends stepped up to fight a common enemy, England. Had it not been for the help of these nations we could not have won and today we would read about the rebellion whilst sipping tea, paying taxes and being so happy that guns were outlawed.

I don't necessarily disagree with your assessment of the trade deficit and the state of consumerism in the US, more from a practical state that at some point it crashes and then what? Most people couldn't chop wood to start a fire in the winter.

Lazy is what dooms this nation.

Hey, what about the people who lived here originally. Some of these nations helped fight in the Revolutionary War. They helped the first settlers make it through those early years' winters.

 

[Arthur Dent]

Yep. On my first trip to Germany I was in a gas station getting directions. Between my poor German and his worse English we were getting somewhere. Three guys walked in. After about 30 seconds one of them asked me why I didn't speak German. My answer was because we won the f*****g war. Thought someone was going to die there that day.

Not quite the best answer perhaps. But they expect people to speak German just like we expect people to speak English.

 

[Jack Ryan]

That doesn't even make sense. This country has the highest levels of production in the world. We must produce in order to consume. This doesn't apply to the government, of course, but in business we produce so we may consume.

Some of the things you assume are bad are actually good. You assume either that some other way would be better, or that we can have the good without the bad.

The definition of a "trade deficit".

define: trade deficit - Google Search


Definitions of trade deficit on the Web:

• an excess of imports over exports
  wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
• The balance of trade (or net exports, sometimes symbolized as NX) is the difference between the monetary value of exports and imports of output in an economy over a certain period. It is the relationship between a nation's imports and exports. ...
  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_Deficit
• Attributive form of trade deficit, noun
  en.wiktionary.org/wiki/trade-deficit
• A negative balance of trade
  en.wiktionary.org/wiki/trade_deficit
• Imports minus exports of goods and services. See deficit.
  www-personal.umich.edu/~alandear/glossary/t.html
• The amount by which a country's merchandise exports exceed its merchandise imports.
  countrystudies.us/united-states/economy-12.htm
• A condition that exists when the value of a nation's imports exceeds the value of its exports.
  www.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/studentnews/03/15/financial.glossary/index.html
• where a country imports more goods than it exports.
  geographyfieldwork.com/GeographyVocabularyGCSEIndustry.htm

None of these are defined as "good" by any one other than the political party who happens to be in power at the time. In fact it is bad. Bad for the country and for the citizens of the country.

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

Not quite the best answer perhaps. But they expect people to speak German just like we expect people to speak English.

Apples and oranges.

A guest in my home may speak whatever language they are able. English is preferred only so that we can converse politely, but if they can not, they are still a guest.

Someone that lives in my home will speak the language of the house. English.

 

[Bondhead88]

Wouldn't those countries be speaking German right now if it hadn't been for us? Men like my Grandfather who lived the dream of our forefathers of not only defending our country but stopping tyranny from spreading throughout our allies?


I'm not saying don't have allies, don't trade. I'm saying don't be RELIANT on trade or allies to provide for your own countries needs and defense.




Exactly

You have got me on your side but not this side. yes the US was a large contributor to the demise of the Germans. But it wasn't because of the US that the war was won it was won by the Allies, which was Britain, Canada, New Zeland, Australia, India and then the non allied countries fighting our enemies like Russia and China.

Without the US the war would have gone on longer and more lives would have been lost but it still would have ended, Albeit there would have been different circumstances to the ending.

Once again this is not an anti American rant. I could not imagine the bravery it took the American, British, Canadian, Australian, and other allied soldiers that stormed the beaches.

I always have dreams of Grandeur if I had been in another generation and been there but I don't think anybody could truly have known until they landed and hit beach as to whether they would storm or sit down and die.

It took equal sacrifice from all who were on the beaches that day and then across Europe to free men from evil incarnate.

I know this rant was a little off topic but I get defensive about the "without us" statement I had family all over Europe fighting from 1939 on. I have an Uncle who worked with the undergrounds as a British agent and received many different medals from foreign governments and to the day he died he was under the war secrets act.

In fact I am going to get his son to send a picture of the medals and pot them here. He was there when Mussolini was hung, helped set up resistance fighters in France, Poland & Italy and was in Germany long before the Allies landed in France and Normandy.

All gave some but some gave all!

 

[leftsock]

Our people are too educated to run automotive companies? Our people are too educated to manufacture it's own building materials? Our people are too educated to build quality clothing or footwear?

I wouldn't say we're too educated to do these things, but we are educated enough to realize that we can get someone else to do it for less.

As a society we NEED builders, we NEED providers. If you can't grow your own food or build your own equipment to build the homes, businesses and transportation to run your country then you're reliant on others to do these things for you.

So, for example, you'd like the US to be self-sufficient for creating... shoes for our footwear needs, right? Okay, simple, your goal is to make it more economically viable to do business in the US than to have that work done overseas. You might need to eliminate the minimum wage, and you're not going to be very popular because of it.

 

[rjstew317]

you know you can start your own "revolution", so to speak, buy buying products that are made right here in the USA. there are still companies that produce everything from blue jeans to sneakers right here. we have to show that there is a demand for these things and be willing to pay a little more for them. that's why i won't by a glock.

 

[PatriotPride]

There's a whole lot of fail in this thread.

If some people TRULY believe what they've written on this thread, then I now COMPLETELY understand why our nation is at the point it is now.