Getting involved post-Zimmerman

[beararms1776]

For health related issues I walk my neighborhood regularly. I have been asked by the Home owners association about involvement for a neighborhood watch program.
I have declined for two reasons:
1) I want to distance myself from the whole official title thing. That just gives an implication that it is some official duty that opens me up to possible lawsuits.
2) people tend to get very lazy about their personal responsibilities if they feel that someone else is responsible. The "oh, we have a man hired, I do not need to pay attention or due anything, it's his job" attitude grows prety fast.
I was working for a non profit and everyone pitched in and kept the place picked up for years. Then we made a cleaning job for a guy because he really needed a little work experience and cash for groceries. Overnight, most people became slobs.

I still walk the neighborhood, sometimes late at night. I still keep my eyes open, and have the will to do whatever it takes to insure the safety of my neighbors. But I am doing it as a good neighbor and a good citizen, not as an "official" of society.

Exactly right! If the job doesn't get done, blame the help.

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

" I guess that's part of why I got into law enforcement. Society now expects, and often demands, that I get involved.

Unless you're one of these guys ^^^^

Don't.

Don't step in other people's dog Pooh.

Especially flaming bags of it. Mr. Belushi speaks the truth.

THIS ^^^^

You wanna get involved , get a good truthful description , be a good witness and call the professionals .

Too easy unless you want to be dragged into a court room .

 

[CitiusFortius]

I'm considering getting a burner phone just so I can call my wife and say "I'm ok" after a critical incident and not have to have her testify that I didn't talk about the event with her.

not a bad idea...

 

[Darral27]

Don't.

Don't step in other people's dog poo.

I have to disagree.
It was probably 15 years ago I remember my mother-law at the time had jury duty. After the trial was over she was talking about the case a little bit. It was in Antioch, TN. on the main road going into an apartment complex, lot's of traffic. I cannot recall the exact situation but short story is there was a man slashing at a young woman with a razor blade. She did live but he cut her multiple times. There were over 10 witnesses to the this attack. Not a single one of them tried to help her. They all just watched until the police got to the scene. I for one do not think I could stand there and watch something like that taking place. I hope there are many more people than just myself who couldn't watch that and not act.
What does that say about us as a society if we cannot help each out due to fear of what might happen to us?

 

[Glock21]

To the OP - Great thoughts! And I'm glad you shared them with us!

...and on a side note: Police are civilians, too.

 

[beararms1776]

I stay clear of putting myself in situations I don't feel comfortable with. I don't know of anyone that can guarantee a persons safety.

 

[SSGSAD]

I have to disagree.
It was probably 15 years ago I remember my mother-law at the time had jury duty. After the trial was over she was talking about the case a little bit. It was in Antioch, TN. on the main road going into an apartment complex, lot's of traffic. I cannot recall the exact situation but short story is there was a man slashing at a young woman with a razor blade. She did live but he cut her multiple times. There were over 10 witnesses to the this attack. Not a single one of them tried to help her. They all just watched until the police got to the scene. I for one do not think I could stand there and watch something like that taking place. I hope there are many more people than just myself who couldn't watch that and not act.
What does that say about us as a society if we cannot help each out due to fear of what might happen to us?

"He", would have heard two things, me saying stop the attack, or I will shoot, and then an explosion .....

 

[Bunnykid68]

"He", would have heard two things, me saying stop the attack, or I will shoot, and then an explosion .....

AMEN to that

 

[churchmouse]

I have to disagree.
It was probably 15 years ago I remember my mother-law at the time had jury duty. After the trial was over she was talking about the case a little bit. It was in Antioch, TN. on the main road going into an apartment complex, lot's of traffic. I cannot recall the exact situation but short story is there was a man slashing at a young woman with a razor blade. She did live but he cut her multiple times. There were over 10 witnesses to the this attack. Not a single one of them tried to help her. They all just watched until the police got to the scene. I for one do not think I could stand there and watch something like that taking place. I hope there are many more people than just myself who couldn't watch that and not act.
What does that say about us as a society if we cannot help each out due to fear of what might happen to us?

Remember 9/11 how many sat and watched some freaks cut up the stewardess on those planes in hopes they would survive if they did not "Get Involved"
The plane that was diverted was only done so after the passengers were made to realize that were not going to survive. I have seen the sheeple stand by and watch. They are afraid of legal action and physical harm. Our society is trying to breed out the "A" male.

 

[Chesh97]

Sharing what I posted on another forum

I have watched several days of this ongoing fiasco, and just want to point out some key things. Why is this important? Because this could be any one of us that conceal carry every day.

God forbid you ever have to use your weapon in a self defense shooting, but if you do, the state will demonize you for every single thing.

In this trial the State demonized Zimmerman for:

-Carrying a gun
-Having a topped off magazine
-Having one in the pipe
-having an IWB holster
-Having hollow point ammunition
-Carrying a flashlight-impact weapon
-Having 2 flashlights (keychain light)
-Took MMA Training
-Took college criminal justice courses
-Neighborhood watch commander-cop wannabe
-Gun with no safety


Now, put yourself in this situation

Do you carry a gun?
Do you have a topped off magazine?
Do you use hollow points?
Do you use an IWB holster?
Do you carry one in the pipe?
Do you train (weights, MMA, boxing)
Do you take gun specific training classes?
Do you shoot competitevly?
Do you carry a knife?
Do you carry a flashlight?
Do you carry pepper spray?
Do you carry an extra magazine?
Do you have an understanding of the law with regards to deadly force?
Are you a frequent member on gun websites?
Do you post on forums about guns?
Do you have facebook posts,twitter about guns?
Do you have picturs of guns/shooting on your phone?
Do you talk to friends/relatives/coworkers about guns?

I'd be willing to bet a majority of us on here do every single one, and the State WILL bring ALL these up (regardless that they are perfectly legal and considered normal for us) to paint you as a "gun nut" cop wannabe vigilante

Also note, that in your defense, your attorneys most likely will not be able to bring any of the "bad things" about the other person into the trial.

This isn't a Zimmerman trial play by play thread, but rather something for us ALL to think about. Scary ****.

 

[VN Vet]

Things will be significantly different if Zimmerman is found guilty of anything. This case later to be known as "The State of Florida vs Zimmerman" shall require the license OC/CC holders to be able to prove their attacker (s):

1. is/are armed with a tool that can be used to cause life threatening injuries.
2. injuries caused by the attacker will be life threating.
3. is/are 18 years old or older.

Before the use of deadly force shall be allowed by Law.

After the incident, the OC/CC Holder shall be required to prove in a Court of Law:

4. the attacker(s) is/are bigger and stronger than you.
5. you are not lying if there are no witnesses to what happened durng the attack.
6. you were truely in fear of your life or the lives of your love ones.
7. you were infact not the attacker and the other person was not trying to get away from you.
8. addition items the government adds at the last minute

Property is no long a reason for deadly force.

Cocked and Locked prove you were looking for trouble

More than 10 rounds carried on your person proves you were looking for trouble.

In otherwords, I think Obama will be one happy camper if Zimmerman is found guilty of anything and goes to prison.

There will be much more to this than my thoughts, words and fears.

 

[churchmouse]

Things will be significantly different if Zimmerman is found guilty of anything. This case later to be known as "The State of Florida vs Zimmerman" shall require the license OC/CC holders to be able to prove their attacker (s):

1. is/are armed with a tool that can be used to cause life threatening injuries.
2. injuries caused by the attacker will be life threating.
3. is/are 18 years old or older.

Before the use of deadly force shall be allowed by Law.

After the incident, the OC/CC Holder shall be required to prove in a Court of Law:

4. the attacker(s) is/are bigger and stronger than you.
5. you are not lying if there are no witnesses to what happened durng the attack.
6. you were truely in fear of your life or the lives of your love ones.
7. you were infact not the attacker and the other person was not trying to get away from you.
8. addition items the government adds at the last minute

Property is no long a reason for deadly force.

Cocked and Locked prove you were looking for trouble

More than 10 rounds carried on your person proves you were looking for trouble.

In otherwords, I think Obama will be one happy camper if Zimmerman is found guilty of anything and goes to prison.

There will be much more to this than my thoughts, words and fears.

And the reality of this entire Sham is to achieve what you are stating. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Sfrandolph]

If Zimmerman was black and Martin was Hispanic, there would not even be a trial. Zimmerman would not have been arrested. Obama would have called him and congratulated him on ridding society of an undesirable. And nothing would have even been in the media. If Zimmerman had been black.

 

[88GT]

It really comes down to the license that society gave Zimmerman to act on their behalf. As far as I can tell, he neither had the training nor the permission to act. He escalated a situation in significance to the point of a death.

No one was in jeopardy of great bodily harm until Zimmerman introduced himself into the situation.

In my mind, he's responsible and having had CCW training in Florida, he should have known better.

Hold the phones!

Martin had every opportunity to continue on his way and avoid the physical confrontation. Zimmerman had lost sight of him, remember? The only reason Zimmerman regained sight contact (after the call to dispatch ended) was because Martin came back. If Zimmerman had been seeking contact with Martin he would have proceeded farther down (south) one of the two paved walk ways that ran in front of or behind the home of Green (where Martin was staying and where he was alleged to have been going that night).

Evidence that Trayvon Martin Doubled Back

Since the 911 audio linked on that page has been removed, I found another one. In the interest of full disclosure, the blog places Zimmerman exiting his car about 15-20 seconds later than what the 9-1-1 audio would seem to indicate, but it doesn't change any of the other time-stamp locations.

If Zimmerman pursued Martin, why didn't the altercation take place farther south on the paved path than it did? Even if one wants to argue that Zimmerman did follow Martin, why would Martin not have been farther south? There are only 2 explanations for Martin being where he was when he was: he back-tracked or he never went farther than the location of the altercation in the first place. Either way, he apparently didn't have much concern about his safety as far as Zimmerman was concerned.

If Martin was concerned about his safety, why didn't he make his "escape" complete? He had the time and the means.

Martin's girlfriend testified that Martin initiated contact with Zimmerman with the question (to paraphrase): "What do you want?" She did not testify that Martin's first interaction with Zimmerman was in response to a question from Zimmerman. Who initiated contact based on the girlfriend's testimony?

Zimmerman also appears to have ceased following Martin at the request of dispatch. But let's assume he followed Martin down the paved path between the townhomes. There are two possibilities, in his pursuit he had traveled farther south than the point of the altercation (point F on the map in the link). In which case the only way the altercation took place at point F was if Zimmerman had retreated and reversed course AWAY from Martin and back toward his truck. The other scenario is that point F is the farthest Zimmerman got in his pursuit. Either way, how did Martin get back to point F? If Zimmerman had pursued farther south than point F, presumably Martin had been even farther south. If Zimmerman had pursued until point F, Martin still is presumed to have been farther south. Zimmerman never mentions to dispatch that he regained sight of Martin. So Martin had either made good on his "escape" or he was hiding or he was lying in wait. If he made good on his "escape," why did he return? If he was hiding, why did he out himself? If he was lying in wait, well, it would appear he got his opportunity to ambush.

Furthermore, Zimmerman did not require any training or permission to do what he was doing. Remove the "neighborhood watch" role and let's just assume he's doing it for himself. Nothing in his actions were illegal. Nothing in his actions presented a clear and present danger to Martin.

I really don't see how Zimmerman escalated anything. All evidence points to Martin re-inserting himself into the situation when it was clear that he had the means and opportunity to avoid it. The only way a confrontation takes place is because Martin lets it happen.

 

[Redhorse]

Sharing what I posted on another forum

I have watched several days of this ongoing fiasco, and just want to point out some key things. Why is this important? Because this could be any one of us that conceal carry every day.

God forbid you ever have to use your weapon in a self defense shooting, but if you do, the state will demonize you for every single thing.

In this trial the State demonized Zimmerman for:

-Carrying a gun
-Having a topped off magazine
-Having one in the pipe
-having an IWB holster
-Having hollow point ammunition
-Carrying a flashlight-impact weapon
-Having 2 flashlights (keychain light)
-Took MMA Training
-Took college criminal justice courses
-Neighborhood watch commander-cop wannabe
-Gun with no safety


Now, put yourself in this situation

Do you carry a gun?
Do you have a topped off magazine?
Do you use hollow points?
Do you use an IWB holster?
Do you carry one in the pipe?
Do you train (weights, MMA, boxing)
Do you take gun specific training classes?
Do you shoot competitevly?
Do you carry a knife?
Do you carry a flashlight?
Do you carry pepper spray?
Do you carry an extra magazine?
Do you have an understanding of the law with regards to deadly force?
Are you a frequent member on gun websites?
Do you post on forums about guns?
Do you have facebook posts,twitter about guns?
Do you have picturs of guns/shooting on your phone?
Do you talk to friends/relatives/coworkers about guns?

I'd be willing to bet a majority of us on here do every single one, and the State WILL bring ALL these up (regardless that they are perfectly legal and considered normal for us) to paint you as a "gun nut" cop wannabe vigilante

Also note, that in your defense, your attorneys most likely will not be able to bring any of the "bad things" about the other person into the trial.

This isn't a Zimmerman trial play by play thread, but rather something for us ALL to think about. Scary ****.

This right here is the best thing said IMHO on this whole thread. Even my parents who both have a ltch are extremely weary of things such as those described above. One must ask themselves what they fee more; needing to defend the,selves and not being able to or the goverenment.

 

[Libertarian01]

I got involved today...

To All,

In a bout of extreme loss of wisdom I stayed way too late (aka after 0330 or 3:30AM) at a friends house and took a goofy route home.

While north on Anthony passing Berry Street and the railroad tracks I saw a car that was down in the RR tracks. I stopped my car and asked if they needed assistance. The gentleman responded that would be nice.

So I circled my car at the next street. While off the main road (Anthony) I called 911 and let them know what was going on - that a car was stuck in the RR tracks and its location. While chatting w/ dispatch I came up behind the spot where the vehicle had left the road and put my emergency flashers on. I disembarked my vehicle with awareness that no other vehicles were approaching. I finished describing the situation w/ dispatch as I could get a better view of things up close. They had SERIOUSLY lodged the car into the tracks!

I spoke w/ the couple (in their 40's - 50's) and they hadn't called ANYBODY yet! Fortunately, dispatch informed me before hanging up that they would call RR company and stop the trains.


In conversing with the couple (I don't think married) they had not done anything to call for help... They had thrown a notebook under the front tire to give it some traction but no calls to anyone. Another guy stopped and we all tried to push the car out but it was lodged good. After about 10 minutes Uncle LEO shows up and parks behind my car with much more pretty lights than mine had. He assesses the situation and while doing so a train whistle could be heard in the distance coming our way! His timing could not have been more perfect.

He made a comment that "if the train comes around the corner bend we are ALL running that way as the debris could be thrown quite a distance."

It was at this point that I realized several other facts: #1) My car was between the potential point of impact and Uncle LEO's car; #2) My car is PAID FOR, and #3) I did NOT want my car to be hit with debris!

So I inquired as to whether he needed me around since I called it in. He asked if I had seen anything and I said "No." So he didn't need me.

I wished them all "Good Luck", got in my car, and turned around and arrived safely at home.

No one in this story to the point that I witnessed was shot. No one was injured. At worst someone lost a nice little Toyota and has a claim on their insurance. At best someone has a towing bill and is out for the minor body damage to their own vehicle.

I could have been mugged. I could have been abused. I could have been injured. It could have been a setup. I am probably exaggerating here.

However, I only did what I would like someone else to do IF I had the stupid attack and turned 10 yards early and stuck my car in the tracks.

Sometimes getting involved means nothing more than making a telephone call and offering moral support. Sometimes it means much more than that.

Regards,

Doug

 

[BehindBlueI's]

...and on a side note: Police are civilians, too.

Depends on context.

[h=2]ci·vil·ian[/h] [si-vil-yuhn] Show IPA
noun1.a person who is not on active duty with a military, naval, police, or fire fighting organization.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Things will be significantly different if Zimmerman is found guilty of anything.

No, it won't. Everything still boils down to "was it reasonable?" Lawyers can, and do, make stupid outlandish arguments to try and make their point in court. Especially when they don't have a legitimate case. Guy gets caught with a crack pipe in his hand walking down the middle of the street naked? Cop is racist for stopping him. Etc. That doesn't make it case law.

 

[Hawkeye]

As a FOWM multiple gun-owner who earns a pretty good living, is well educated, has had TKD lessons (years ago), etc. - I would definitely think twice about "getting involved". Especially if it involves someone that the media is more partial to. But then, I already had that streak of caution.

I'd like to think that if I saw the entire confrontation unfolding, I'd have the stones to "do something" if I saw someone being assaulted on the street. But you also have to know that you rarely know the whole story around a confrontation, even when you think you know the whole thing. Maybe the guy getting a beat-down had been screwing with the other guys wife or girlfriend or daughter and the assailant thad just caught up with him. Dont' know that I'd be ethically/morally justified in intervening even with legal justification. I might verbally try to break it up if it was going pretty far, but I really doubt that I'd use deadly force. The Z trial, though has nothing to do with that.

Now involve my family or a close personal friend, a little kid, a woman trying to fight off a possible rapist - well, I hope those situations don't come up but I'd be doing a lot more than just watching and calling 911. Just what would depend on the the situation at hand. Again, nothing to do with the Z trial.

 

[VN Vet]

Originally Posted by VN Vet

Things will be significantly different if Zimmerman is found guilty of anything.

Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's

No, it won't. Everything still boils down to "was it reasonable?" Lawyers can, and do, make stupid outlandish arguments to try and make their point in court. Especially when they don't have a legitimate case. Guy gets caught with a crack pipe in his hand walking down the middle of the street naked? Cop is racist for stopping him. Etc. That doesn't make it case law.



Chesh97 and I have made comments about acts we do now and what acts we should no longer do. Our 2nd Ammendment Rights will be stepped on big time if Zimmerman is not aquitted.

I believe Zimmerman used deadly force for the single purpose of stopping his attacker. If found guilty of murder or manslaughter, this will set a legal precedent that can have severe and long lasting consequences.

If Zimmerman is found guilty, then States and the Feds can and likey will pass laws that prohibit you from using your firearm to defend yourself or others.

If you can no longer defend yourself and others with a firearm, then you no longer need firearms. If you don't need firearms, then you no longer need ammunition for the firearm. Obama and Crew will be dancing on our Constitution.

Zimmerman is facing a long prison sentence, 15 years, 30 years or life, if found guilty.

I ask you to take action when and where you can. If the outcome of this trial is anything but an aquittal for Zimmerman, then let's start sending out letters to our representitive in government. Let them know we will not go willingly nor quietly into that goodnight. I know I will doing so. The pen is mightier than the sword.