Fellow car gurus... I'm baffled.

[K_W]

Please excuse the formatting, this is next to impossible to write in paragraph form...

I have been having a weird issue with my car which is, for simplicity's sake, a re-badged 1998 Corolla with 135k miles.

I believe this is at least the 4th time this has happened, in the same number of years... the first time I can pin down was in August 2011 after a week of sitting while we were on vacation, the second after just two days of sitting, but this car will sit for 24+ hours regularly if I'm off work and stay home and sometimes all weekend if we drive my wife's car... third and then fourth basically the same and described below, except the 4th was the only time involving a battery charger.


Thursday night, I put the car on a battery charger because the temps were about to drop later in the week and wanted peak power, it charged for an hour and then went to maintain mode, I later went to bed.

Friday morning, removed the charger, cranked it, it sounded like compression on only one cylinder, then another until it fired and missed for a few seconds until I revved it and they all started catching...

Since I did not catch it on video, all i can do is describe it... it went like this...

Drove it the normal 1 1/2 miles home from work (it was outside in 30 something degrees F), parked it in garage, went to bed, next morning temp gauge said 46 or so in garage...

Whir = that dreaded no compression, freely moving piston sound... you know it if you've heard it.
chug = compression bump
miss = shake
fire = cylider firing

Whir whir whir chug, whir whir whir chug, whir whir whir chug, stop.

whir whir whir chug, whir whir whir chug, whir whir whir chug, whir whir chug chug, whir whir whir chug, whir whir chug fire, whir whir chug fire, miss miss fire fire, miss miss fire fire, miss miss fire fire, miss miss fire fire, rev a little missing horrible, rev to 2000 missing smoothed, drop to high idle... ran fine, drove to work.


Drove the car 4 times that day (1 1/2 mi each work to home and vice-versa), 6+ times yesterday (home to work to home to work to store to home), and 4 times today which twice was in snow (home to work to home to work in flurries and home in snow), zero issues, runs smooth, no unusual noises for my car, plenty of power, no CEL.

Battery... Good, fully charged night before. charger / maintainer WAS NOT on the other times this has happened, and not likely the cause. This issue also has never occurred after disconnecting or changing the battery. Battery likely not the cause.

Timing... chain driven, runs great, good power.

Fuel... BP regular half tank. Likely not the cause.

Oil... level is 1/2 qt low 2000 mile into normal 3000 mile change with Castrol / Mobil / Valvoline (I forget which) 5w30 synthetic with a qt of store brand syn. mixed in due to consumption. (high consumption is a common issue on this motor)

Noises... I work with peoples cars daily and my car sounds no different starting, running or idling, than any other 98-02 toyota 1zzfe except at these times that it loses it's mind.

Temperature... was in garage ~45 degrees F... The car had been outside this week in 20's 30's @ 40's and in garage which has stayed around 45-55, it has started normal every other time. It started slow but fine this Feb. when it was -12 and it will be +10 tomorrow and it will probably start then too. Does not appear to be the cause.

Sitting time... ~12 hours... normal overnight sitting time... should not be cause.

I'm baffled because if it was time sitting or temperature related, bad compression, or bad rings, or whatever, this should happen every time I let it sit for a day or two and certainly more than once every 8 months...

Any other car, I'd suspect lifters are losing prime or stuck valves, but the 1zzfe has solid lifters and 3 to 6 valves don't stick over night and then clear up in 60 seconds...

Any ideas?

 

[ws98ta]

I would try a set of plugs.
I had a Honda that had a similar problem once.
It would leak compression past the porcelain on the plugs. It was pretty random.

 

[hdjake73]

And plug wires. I have found over the years driving Toyota and Hondas that plug wires will go bad and cause misses on certain cylinders and ruin fine one things warmed up.I'm not saying that's it for sure but it does happen.

 

[PaulF]

I want you to check something for me: remove the oil filler cap and get your nose as close to the opening as you can...does the crankcase smell of fuel?

My first impression is flooding, possibly due to a malfunctioning engine coolant temp sensor. The symptoms you describe line up closely with flooding/lack of compression due to cylinder wash-out.

Do you have access to a scan tool?

 

[Bigtanker]

Does this still have a distributor or does it have a coil pack?

Sounds like the crank angle/cam angle/crank shaft position sensor.

If it still had a distributor, there could be oil inside it. O-ring leaked and its causing a misfire until the oil gets moved around inside the cap.

 

[churchmouse]

Has it been tuned up.
Not being snarky but I have seen this so often. New plugs/wires etc and zoom....off to the races. People believe these cars are infallible.

Paul may be onto something as well. Possibly multiple issues.

 

[eldirector]

Ya'll beat me to the "tune up" question.

Plugs/wires/filters. I've seen similar behavior when starved for fuel due to a clogged fuel filter (pump has to build pressure before it will run). Same with old plugs wires (when warm, they work fine).

I doubt it is something as major as bad compression.

 

[K_W]

I know the difference between the no fire sound and the no compression sound...

spark plugs are NGK dual ground copper as called for in owners manual, wires are Bosch and both were done in 2010 and have 25k mile on them... plugs are rated for 30k+... if it were plugs and wires it would miss and it doesn't 99.9% of the time.

fuel pump... plenty of power as happy to run at 20 mph as it is at 70.

filter... no filter, pick up sock.

crank sensor... would expect check engine and misfiring neither happen.

no distributor, it has 2 coil packs, seem fine.

PaulF... I have driven it too many times since to tell you what the oil smelled like, but I can tell you I have never smelled fuel anywhere on the car, including when changing the oil, except when gassing it up. I do not have access to a real scan tool, but I do have mid level code reader at work. I will runit for codes this afternoon, but I don't have a MIL right now, but a code could be stored or pending.

 

[churchmouse]

I know the difference between the no fire sound and the no compression sound...

spark plugs are NGK dual ground copper as called for in owners manual, wires are Bosch and both were done in 2010 and have 25k mile on them... plugs are rated for 30k+... if it were plugs and wires it would miss and it doesn't 99.9% of the time.

fuel pump... plenty of power as happy to run at 20 mph as it is at 70.

filter... no filter, pick up sock.

crank sensor... would expect check engine and misfiring neither happen.

no distributor, it has 2 coil packs, seem fine.

Car is 16 years old. Might be deeper than the ignition like you already suspect.

 

[Bigtanker]

Does this motor have VVT? (Variable valve timing)

 

[K_W]

Does this motor have VVT? (Variable valve timing)

No

 

[halfmileharry]

Compression, Fuel, Ignition. Getting fuel? Have compression? Getting continuous spark? I'm betting on spark (ignition) via the computer.
I replaced one on my mom's 99 corolla from the junk yard. There was a lot of them missing from the dash. GONE. Guy at the counter told me they sell 'em as soon as they come in the yard.

Oreilly's can test the control modules for you. N/C

 

[Suprtek]

I'm gonna guess its a failing fuel pump. I believe its easy to replace on your car too due to an access panel under the rear seat. It a relatively common failure item on that car after a few years and miles. Its not too expensive and probably due for replacement anyway. Hard to say for sure in an on line forum but I would almost bet money on it. Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[K_W]

I'm gonna guess its a failing fuel pump. I believe its easy to replace on your car too due to an access panel under the rear seat. It a relatively common failure item on that car after a few years and miles. Its not too expensive and probably due for replacement anyway. Hard to say for sure in an on line forum but I would almost bet money on it. Good luck and keep us posted.

I would suspect that if I had this problem more than just once in every 240 days... plus I give it gas while this is happening and it revs up then smooths out.

I can disable the fuel pump and crank it but it wont sound like it did Friday.

That sound... I know that sound. I keep hearing that sound in my head. That starter turning with no compression sound is so unlike a cars normal pre-firing startup compression sound. I had one distinct compression and three no compressions repeating, then two and two, until it caught, then smoothed out.

I drove the car twice today, once after sitting outside in 30 to 19 degree cold for 9 hours, it started slower because of the cold, but ran great.

The thing everyone seems to gloss over is that this car drives perfect 999 out of 1000 times. (~4 start-ups a day for 8 months) but when it acts up it always does the exact same thing.

 

[churchmouse]

I would suspect that if I had this problem more than just once in every 240 days... plus I give it gas while this is happening and it revs up then smooths out.

That sound... I know that sound. I keep hearing that sound in my head. That starter turning with no compression sound is so unlike a cars normal pre-firing startup sound. I can disable the fuel pump and crank it but it wont sound like it did Friday. I had two distinct compressions and two no compressions repeating until it caught and began missing, then smoothed out.

I drove the car twice today, once after sitting outside in 19 degree cold for 9 hours, it started slower because of the cold, but ran great.

The thing everyone seems to gloss over is that this car drives perfect 999 out of 1000 times. (4 times a day for 8 months) but when it acts up it always does the exact same thing.

Not glossing over just guessing via the internet.
If standing right there when this happens it might be easier to diagnose although your typed out sound effects are pretty good.
My van was acting goofy every so often. Would spin over and not fire. Never did it to me. Always the wife or my son. I checked the pressure at the fuel rail and it was on point. No codes in the ECU. Just a stumper. Then one day I went to drive it and it would not start. Unlike the 10 or so other times it would not start even after waiting. I checked the pressure.....zero. Pump went out. replaced it and flawless since. It will fail totally eventually and then you will have your answer.

 

[Brian Ski]

My first impression is flooding, possibly due to a malfunctioning engine coolant temp sensor. The symptoms you describe line up closely with flooding/lack of compression due to cylinder wash-out.

Do you have access to a scan tool?

I am leaning toward a fuel issue like you... I think what Paul means with the scan tool is not to check for codes but to check and see what the temp is reading. Intake temp and coolant temp. See if they are close or way off... Maybe they are intermittent and hard to tell.

BTW I see you said that it does not have a normal fuel filter. That always seemed weird to me. Is there a maintenance schedule for the filter sock on the pump??? Sounds like you have good access to the pump from under the rear seat. One guy mentioned the filter should be good for 150,000 miles... You are kind of close to that.

Kind of hard to diagnose an intermittent problem. Even worse without seeing the car.

 

[K_W]

I am leaning toward a fuel issue like you... I think what Paul means with the scan tool is not to check for codes but to check and see what the temp is reading. Intake temp and coolant temp. See if they are close or way off... Maybe they are intermittent and hard to tell.

BTW I see you said that it does not have a normal fuel filter. That always seemed weird to me. Is there a maintenance schedule for the filter sock on the pump??? Sounds like you have good access to the pump from under the rear seat. One guy mentioned the filter should be good for 150,000 miles... You are kind of close to that.

Kind of hard to diagnose an intermittent problem. Even worse without seeing the car.

My reader at work does take live reading including IAT, MAP, TPS, o2's, fuel loop, est. load, and RPM. I will get a read tomorrow, but not expecting any suprises.

 

[K_W]

BTW I see you said that it does not have a normal fuel filter. That always seemed weird to me. Is there a maintenance schedule for the filter sock on the pump??? Sounds like you have good access to the pump from under the rear seat.

It has a sock, which is supposed to last the life of the pump. I could pull the pump I have the knowledge and tools, but I really don't want to unnecessarily, as it could lead to more issues (like breaking things... I'm as good at that as I am fixing.)

EDIT, this was supposed to be part of the last reply... I goofed.

 

[Brian Ski]

Just tossing it out... Does it have a timing belt??? Has it ever been changed??? I could see it jumping but rare to have it pop back into time. (even more than rare)

 

[K_W]

Just tossing it out... Does it have a timing belt??? Has it ever been changed??? I could see it jumping but rare to have it pop back into time. (even more than rare)

Chain.

UNLESS... the hydraulic timing tensioner lost it's prime and the cams lagged behind until the prime came back??? I'm trying to think how that might be possible but it would have slack on the back side which would not affect the cams which would still be tensioned by the pull of the crank... I would also expect chain slap noise and there wasn't.