Ideal trigger pre-travel & weight ?

[Grelber]

For pistol shooting sports, anybody have an opinion on what is best and why?

 

[Rob377]

Both of these things are overrated in terms of overall trigger quality.


I've seen quite a few triggers that the owner thought were awesome because they were 1.5 pounds with no pre-travel. Sure they were 1.5 pounds but they did it at the expense of trigger reset and then they wonder why they can't get under .20 - .25 splits. Or they think it's so great because there is zero pre-travel and then they wonder why they have ND or trigger shots before they're on the a zone.

There is no marginal benefit to having a trigger lighter than the weight of the gun. If it is in that ballpark, you can discharge the weapon without applying enough force to move the gun and thus the sites even with the worst possible grip. Once you're below that, there's no point in going any lower you're just giving up reset tension typically.

 

[rvb]

Both of these things are overrated in terms of overall trigger quality.

great big +1.

I set my triggers up w. as much pre travel and over travel as I can get. None of my triggers, even my open gun, are much under 3 lb.

-rvb

 

[BehindBlueI's]

There is no marginal benefit to having a trigger lighter than the weight of the gun. If it is in that ballpark, you can discharge the weapon without applying enough force to move the gun and thus the sites even with the worst possible grip.

I don't disagree with your overall point, but I'd have to call this into question. It takes much less effort to push a gun off target than the weight of the weapon. Think of a long gun, something routinely weighing in at 7 lbs or more. The sight picture floats naturally just from the tiny movements in your muscles as you aren't completely still, and that's completely insufficient to pick up the actual weight of the rifle. You can slide your hands under it and sit their all day and those tiny muscle movements aren't going to lift it.

A handgun is the same, but less noticeable. Gripping a handgun and pulling the trigger uses multiple forces in different directions, all of which overwhelm the weight of the gun. Your grip tightness is way more force than that required to simply hold the gun, after all, and will thus be way more than needed to push the gun around, regardless of trigger weight. In short, you are always applying more force to the gun than required to push it around, regardless of weight, even before adding in any trigger pull whatsoever.

 

[Grelber]

Interesting.

Having seen Rob377 shoot and some of the revolver guys it is apparent that a Danger Dan hair trigger isn't neccessary, but as long as I was fiddling with a gun it seemed logical to inquire about and aim for whatever is best.

Was snooping & I found this Poll: Trigger pull weight - 1911-style Pistols - Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo! , kind of shocked that the majority of those folks are 2 lb and under.

 

[rvb]

the less force needed to pull the trigger = the less force a bad trigger press has available to disturb the sights. I don't really see the weight of the gun needing to correlate to the weight of the trigger pull, but certainly a heavy gun can help dampen out a bad press.

Regardless, for the practical pistol games about the most accuracy you will ever need is hitting an A zone at 50 yds once every couple years... it aint bullseye. And a bad trigger press is a bad trigger press. Shaving a pound or two of trigger weight is only going to make a very tiny difference in how far you miss your point of aim.

-rvb

 

[Rob377]

Rifles and pistols aren't the same in the way the weight is distributed for one. With a rifle, the weight is distributed over 3 points of contact, vs just one. An input at the for grip or trigger doesn't need to be 7lb or whatever because it's eesentially a lever with a fulcrum. Second, if you're a ham fist trigger masher, there's still no marginal benefit going from 3lbs to 1lb. Youll still be a ham fisted trigger masher. Third, disruption of the sights in this context means adding a variation outside of the normal wobble zone inherent in simply holding the weapon in a static position.

But I certainly welcome competitors to continue on with the conventional wisdom of trying to get silly light triggers because they think it will make them better.

 

[Rob377]

Interesting.

Having seen Rob377 shoot and some of the revolver guys it is apparent that a Danger Dan hair trigger isn't neccessary, but as long as I was fiddling with a gun it seemed logical to inquire about and aim for whatever is best.

Was snooping & I found this Poll: Trigger pull weight - 1911-style Pistols - Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo! , kind of shocked that the majority of those folks are 2 lb and under.

a majority are also C class and under as well.

3# with a clean break with a nice positive reset would be what I'd shoot for.

 

[rvb]

But I certainly welcome competitors to continue on with the conventional wisdom of trying to get silly light triggers because they think it will make them better.

"..... now, does anyone have any BIC pens I can borrow?" Hehehe... I kid! I kid!

-rvb

 

[Rob377]

Heh.

Well played.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Rifles and pistols aren't the same in the way the weight is distributed for one. With a rifle, the weight is distributed over 3 points of contact, vs just one. An input at the for grip or trigger doesn't need to be 7lb or whatever because it's eesentially a lever with a fulcrum. Second, if you're a ham fist trigger masher, there's still no marginal benefit going from 3lbs to 1lb. Youll still be a ham fisted trigger masher. Third, disruption of the sights in this context means adding a variation outside of the normal wobble zone inherent in simply holding the weapon in a static position.

But I certainly welcome competitors to continue on with the conventional wisdom of trying to get silly light triggers because they think it will make them better.

I understand all of that, I'm simply taking issue with "you can discharge the weapon without applying enough force to move the gun" That's not a function of trigger weight vs weight of the firearm. That's a function of trigger weight vs the equilibrium you've already attained by lifting and gripping your gun. Saying a 3 lb gun can't be pushed around by a less than 3 lb trigger pull isn't true. It can't be picked up by the trigger without being fired, but that's a different animal than pushing sights off target.

 

[Twangbanger]

My biggies are, I do not ever want any trigger that "stacks," and, I believe for good one-handed shooting at range targets, excessive reset length should be avoided. I cannot run a trigger as fast that way, and the long reset does add some struggle for me. Two hands, I just don't seem to notice so much.

Because of that, I like 3.5 pounds and 1911 style reset the best, but because my main sport is bullseye and that's the rules, it could just be making a virtue out of necessity. I will say Expert class shooters and above shoot ~95s in slow fire with those 3.5 to 4 lb. triggers with some regularity (which is the phase where those matches are decided), and that's basically hitting an area just a bit smaller than a USPSA A-zone at 50 yards one-handed. That's very slow shooting, but point is, if you're wondering about accuracy, the benefit of very light triggers is probably overstated for centerfire handguns for typical uses. For bullseye, more than 4 lbs. feels like too much to me and I struggle too much to break precision shots. For action sports, that max. feels more like 6 lbs. for me. When I shoot USPSA (I'm a noob), my bullseye gun and 5lb. CZ trigger have no difference in accuracy or speed to speak of, in my hands. If your press is straight back, you can tolerate a lot of weight and still get hits. If it's not, I've found on my Olympic style guns you can lighten triggers to the point of being dangerous and still get "mystery" shots.

For two hand shooting, Glocks, CZs, 1911s, SIGs, pretty much everything feels ok to me. (The Kahr trigger takes a bit of work for me, but is really not a "sport" trigger).

 

[partyboy6686]

Both of these things are overrated in terms of overall trigger quality.


I've seen quite a few triggers that the owner thought were awesome because they were 1.5 pounds with no pre-travel. Sure they were 1.5 pounds but they did it at the expense of trigger reset and then they wonder why they can't get under .20 - .25 splits. Or they think it's so great because there is zero pre-travel and then they wonder why they have ND or trigger shots before they're on the a zone.

There is no marginal benefit to having a trigger lighter than the weight of the gun. If it is in that ballpark, you can discharge the weapon without applying enough force to move the gun and thus the sites even with the worst possible grip. Once you're below that, there's no point in going any lower you're just giving up reset tension typically.

Listen to Rob. I thought 2lb triggers with no pretravel was the best thing. Then while shooting a match I had trigger problems and Rob was nice enough to take a look at my gun. My gun had a 2lb trigger with a crappy reset that you couldn't even feel.

 

[rhino]

Jerry Miculek has very heavy trigger pulls on his revolvers by most people's standards. Because of that, his trigger resets faster.

 

[romack991]

I [STRIKE]set my triggers up w. as much pre travel and over travel as I can get.[/STRIKE] shoot a Glock.

 

[Bosshoss]

Rob nailed it a consistent break and a good reset makes the best triggers IMO.

Jerry Miculek has very heavy trigger pulls on his revolvers by most people's standards. Because of that, his trigger resets faster.

Since Rhino brought this up.
Jerry has evolved from his early days of practical shooting. Jerry started out years ago with heavy triggers because he was smart enough to realize that the reset was more important than the pull for speed shooting. Now his revolvers he uses in competition run around 6#(according to him) and he doesn't use a full power return spring like he used to because he figured out that with the proper gun work it wasn't needed.
When I do a full competition action job on a S&W revolver it takes me 7-10 hours for everything(every gun is different). I spend about 3-4 hours stoning and polishing and 75% of that is on the trigger RETURN. With everything stoned and polished and a few other tricks I can run a lighter return spring and still get a fast return.
I run my revolvers at around 5.5- 6 pounds because I like the trigger return at that weight. A couple of years ago I turned one of my guns down to 4.5 pounds and shot it for a while. I didn't like it, it messed up my timing and slowed down my splits. I also short stroked the trigger several times and just didn't see any advantages. Turned it back up and never looked back.
I have never handled a revolver that was under 5 pounds DA that had a return that I liked. That includes some from the best revolver smiths in the world. Just doesn't work for me.
That being said if someone practices with it enough they can get used to it and even like it. That doesn't mean that they couldn't shoot a revolver with a faster return better.
I do like a lighter trigger on my autos as long as they have a good reset.
My TC Encore that I hunt with shotgun, varmint, and Muzzleloader on 1 receiver has a trigger job that I did that breaks at 1# and I love it but I don't have to worry about a reset.

 

[rhino]

Thanks for the correction!

 

[rvb]

But I haven't always shot a glock...

-rvb

 

[BillD]

Leatham said something at Shot Show about not being able to handle a 3#+ trigger very well (I'm sure that's relative) because of all his years shooting lighter triggers.

I would be interesting to find out what the top 20 shooters prefer on a trigger.

 

[U.S. Patriot]

I'm new to USPSA, and used to shooting guns right out of the box with no modifications. I bought a CZ as my USPSA gun, as they can be modified to your hearts content. I recently installed there DA upgrade kit to lower the DA pull weight. I'm going to work on the trigger, but I want to stay around 3.5-4 lbs. I have thought about swapping out the disconnecter, which eliminates over travel, but I think I'll hold off for the time being. I can replace the lifter arm which is claimed to cut the reset in half, again I'm going to hold off for now. I'm still learning and working on my shooting.