Predict the 1st Banning for uncivil behavior in the new Religious Threads...

[JettaKnight]

I believe in ghosts, lol.

Want to go do some pottery?

 

[JettaKnight]

There a difference in translation. I personally don't believe the word of God is known to all men (men being used to describe all people). Other translations changes "bringeth" to "offers," and has "appeared" showing up, prior to. which is quite a significant difference, IMO, as it makes note of the word existing, and is for man's salvation, but does not take for granted that he has been exposed to it prior to death. This reconciles well with the thought of those incapable of accepting Christ, as not being automatically condemned to hell (ie children, mentally disabled. Etc).

This sounds oh so Calvinist.


And I like it.

 

[ChristianPatriot]

Appeared. From the Greek work epiphaino: to shine upon, to become (literally) visible or (figuratively) known; appear, give light. Sound familiar? Epiphany?

 

[IndyDave1776]

Gentlemen...

Can you provide any biblical basis for praying to Mary, or any saint, or any other creature made by God? Where has God ever condoned speaking/communing/praying to the dead? Further, what basis have you to think that God's creations have any influence over God?

The God of the Bible does not leave any room for us to be praying to his creations. God repeatedly condemns idolatry (which is by no means limited to physical gold idols), and describes himself as jealous for our praise. "Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength," He commands in Deut 6:5. It would be difficult to argue that we should give God the leftover prayer time after we finish Hailing Mary fifty times. No, God does not share.

Deuteronomy 18:11 tells us that anyone who "consults with the dead" is "detestable to the Lord."

If that is not compelling enough, why is there a need for anything beyond the one perfect (and explicitly named) intercessor, Jesus? Paul writes: "For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Timothy 2:5). If it weren't condemned already, it would certainly be insulting to Christ to turn to others to do His exclusive work.

I am going to have to take the middle of the road this time. Doctrinally, we are are in complete agreement. My concerns are that I see the Catholic doctrines regarding what is commonly termed as praying to deceased saints not as idolatry but as something similar to me asking you to pray for me while be both still are alive. Looking at it in this context, I still see it as unnecessary and superfluous, but I would not consider it something that would in itself call into question someone's salvation. This is one of those points where my general opinion that if something is worth doing, it is worth doing well, but it if is worth doing, it is also worth doing badly as opposed to it not being done comes into relevance. My personal experience is that official Catholic doctrine muddies the water so far as salvation is concerned, but on the other hand, most of the Catholics I know have found it nevertheless and similar numbers of people who leave me feeling less than comfortable with their spiritual condition are found in churches of all flavors. In the end, while I advocate the best understanding and best doctrine as a very important issue, I also place the greatest emphasis on being on the correct line that divides the saved from the unsaved. Now, on the other hand, if I were to suspect that one of our Catholic neighbors was indeed engaged in idolatry--converting this detour into de facto polytheism--I would definitely feel compelled to have a talk with him about it.

I also feel compelled to point out that the scriptural prohibitions regarding communicating with the dead or with spirits (which are in fact one in the same since the actual dead cannot communicate with us) are found within the context of consulting with them regarding revelation that is not from God which is entirely different from simply asking that Aunt Marge put in a good word with the Lord for us (our position in the ineffectiveness of doing so notwithstanding).

In the interest of full disclosure, it isn't that I don't take less than ideal doctrine seriously, it is a matter that I am more concerned with that division between saved and unsaved and that so many are on the wrong side of that divide. It would probably be more harsh than intended to say that I am more concerned with salvation than purity tests, but that is as well as I can manage to put it into a concise phrase (yes, I know, concise in the same sentence with me is really funny).

 

[ChristianPatriot]

All. From the Greek word pas: all, the whole, every kind of.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Since this thread is sort of a catch-all for religious things... I found this story odd.

Muslim boys soccer team refuses to play against team with 2 girls

The two girls ended up sitting out of the game.

 

[printcraft]

Since this thread is sort of a catch-all for religious things... I found this story odd.

Muslim boys soccer team refuses to play against team with 2 girls

The two girls ended up sitting out of the game.

“We want inclusion for all. We are trying to find a solution to a problem,” he said.

Well, a good solution for the problem would be to start NOT being backwards dickheads and then go from there.

 

[T.Lex]

For anyone who wants to teach the Bible as true fact in any classroom on public school property, I have nothing but warranted animosity.

Out of curiosity, who should be the arbiter of what competing theories are taught?

I mean, there's probably an Honors Physics class where they get into quantum mechanics. At a certain age, can't young adults be exposed to parts of science where there may be a consensus, but not unanimity?

Since this thread is sort of a catch-all for religious things... I found this story odd.

Muslim boys soccer team refuses to play against team with 2 girls

The two girls ended up sitting out of the game.

Oh that is TOTAL BS. But, credit to the girls for sitting out the second half on their own volition. Probably gave some of the second-team a chance to play.

 

[BugI02]

Well, a good solution for the problem would be to start NOT being backwards dickheads and then go from there.

QFMFT. Quoted for MAJOR F@#king truth

 

[BugI02]

All. From the Greek word pas: all, the whole, every kind of.

Lets see. At one translated word per post, I guess I'll check back in about post 1177 and see how you wrap this up

 

[ChristianPatriot]

Lets see. At one translated word per post, I guess I'll check back in about post 1177 and see how you wrap this up

I just did the words in question.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Since this thread is sort of a catch-all for religious things... I found this story odd.

Muslim boys soccer team refuses to play against team with 2 girls

The two girls ended up sitting out of the game.

Well, a good solution for the problem would be to start NOT being backwards dickheads and then go from there.

Where is the evening news screaming up a lung about "Islam's 'War on Girls'?" Oh, that's right. If rape, pillage, and burning people alive are acceptable, what's a little sexism on the soccer field.

 

[T.Lex]

Can you provide any biblical basis for praying to Mary, or any saint, or any other creature made by God? Where has God ever condoned speaking/communing/praying to the dead? Further, what basis have you to think that God's creations have any influence over God?

First, let me again preface that I do not pretend to know the will of God or how his machinations work. There are Mysteries about God that the human mind cannot fathom. This is simply my fallible understanding.

But, your last question is the easiest to answer. Abraham and the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. Gen. 18: 17-33. God started at no mercy. Abraham, in a brilliant bit of negotiating, worked him down to saving the cities if he could find 10 righteous men. Abe had skeelz.

The point being that, God has an open mind about some things. He knew there were no righteous men in the cities. But, he allowed Abraham to exercise his free will and actually try to sway God. It worked, sorta. Turns out it didn't matter, but God still moved off his "no mercy" position all the way down to 10. The needle was moved.

Another angle on this is that certain gifts from God are bestowed upon the blessed to use as they see fit. Healings for example. God can certainly heal, and has. But, He has also allowed certain people, at certain times, to act as instruments of His healing. Would He have healed in their absence? Maybe. But, the reality* is that someone interceded and helped implement God's will.

The God of the Bible does not leave any room for us to be praying to his creations. God repeatedly condemns idolatry (which is by no means limited to physical gold idols), and describes himself as jealous for our praise.

And this is where the conflation starts. As Catholics, we don't pray to the saints (although laziness of language sometimes makes it sound like it). We pray for the saints to use whatever influence they might have in our favor.

As for the rest, I can only do worse than St. Thomas Aquinas. Here's a link to a translation of a portion of Summa Theologica that addresses your points. (Kinda interesting that the same objections are being made and addressed through the passage of time.)
SUMMA THEOLOGICA: Prayers with regard to the saints in heaven (Supplementum, Q. 72)

* Awkward using "reality" in this context for some people, but the real reality is that some healings have no medical explanation. I've witnessed at least one, so for me, it is reality.

 

[warthog]

Just like on G+ and as usual when trying to discuss this sort of thing with those who already know all they need to know, period, I must yield the field. No point and I have better things to do. I do want to address one thing before I go.

At least Cathy admits that to believe in all that science shovels takes faith, just like to believe all that religious dogma shovels takes faith. If you cannot see that faith is the same for both then I think I cannot help nor will I. If you think that Religion and Faith are synonymous, perhaps you should read the dictionary. Religion is the dogma and aded by humanity stuff that has nothing to do with the actual Faith it takes to believe in God and His Word.

The Bible predicts most of these reactions to it I see in this thread. I find this interesting that God knows us so well yet many find it so easy to pretend He isn't. He PROVES He is who He says He is throughout the Bible but it is denied anyway. The more science discovers, the more it becomes clear that God already knows what science is just discovering. For those who say this supposed info is so vague you cold use it to prove anything you want to prove, it really isn't but since you have already made up your minds, it wouldn't matter what you were shown, you'd deny it. Again, God says this in the Bible and said it a long time ago showing how well He knows his creation.

Creation. if someone dares to show anything that might get us closer to it scientifically, is cause for dismissal and funding cuts in scientific circles. I know this isn't accepted by the non-scientists here, I have shown this but it is easy to dismiss when you also say "This isn' Science" to any examples you are shown. Evolution has never been proven by the scientific method, I have explained this but since it so obviously has been proven to those who don't understand what "prove" means in science, I will not keeps explaining it nor will I again show proof.

Here is a scientist who, without mentioning God in his papers or research found that the Earth cannot be as old as science says. He has lost six jobs trying to get this fully research though he has managed to publish once in a peer reviewed and well known, in science, journal. It get a bit technical and uses science words but since there are so many people here who stay up on things, that should be fine. The science folks here, since they obviouslt know their stuff so well, should be able to follow it well enough. He covers what this all means in the video and it is rather long at an hour and 12 minutes but it is worth watching until he gets all "Christian" near the end. THere are many such videos from many such scientists who have shown things that just on't fit into the common belief system. All have lost their jobs for having the audacity to follow what may towards the truth and some didn't even start as Believers but scientists who came to the Faith because of what they found, made the mistake of getting it published. I admit it isn't impossible to get a paper or two through the peers now and then, in fact there are many of them there but those people always, after managing to disprove the common science dogma, turn about and at least pay homage to the common belief system so they are not thrown away because the have the the veneer of having the science faith. Here then is at least one of those videos but this one is from a guy who didn't kneel before the science gods but stayed the source and let it lead him where it might and was disgrace for doing what scientist pretend they are all about...

[video=youtube;MqDV_MTQSxg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=397&v=MqDV_MTQSxg[/video]

I will pop in to see where it is going, but since it is sort of marking time and has been for a couple of days, I doubt it will go far. If I am asked for more proof, I will give it but only for a while. Why should I keep showing the same thing over and again only to be told you do not accept this as proof. I can't show you if you simply won't be shown. Soo you later in the day Do at least try and watch some of the video, OK?

 

[sbu sailor]

...You have my attention. If the universe is indeed doughnut based, cops are God's chosen people for sure.

lol

 

[PaulF]

Alright, guys...I'm closing the thread.

It isn't because anyone is being uncivil or because anyone has broken any rules, it has just become too hard to follow any one branch of the conversation.

So, I have opened four new threads to address the four main "sub-topics" this thread seems to have embodied. (Feel free to start others, if you feel I have missed something). I am on my lunch break now, but over the weekend I will start shuffling some of the posts from this thread into the new ones to create more cohesive conversation strings.

Here are the new threads:

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...-discussion-general-religious-discussion.html - For the general stuff that doesn't fit in a better category.

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...us-discussion-science-vs-religion-debate.html - For discussions revolving around the scientific/philosophical end of the debate.

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...gious-discussion-all-things-christianity.html - For discusssion of Christianity, the Bible, the various Christian sects, etc...

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...il-religious-discussion-all-things-islam.html - For discussion of Islam , the Qur'an, the various Islamic sects, etc...

CIVIL DISCUSSION, AS ALWAYS, IS THE GOAL AND THE REQUIREMENT.

Thanks, INGO!