Taxes, taxes, taxes and LESS TAXES... wait, what?!?!?

[BugI02]

I would absolutely LOVE it if everyone could get together and decide that property taxes are immoral.

Do we really own anything if we have to pay the government to rent it?

People will say, "but how will we fund the schools? Won't someone think of the children?"

We're going to pay for it one way or another, whether it's income tax, sales tax, or property tax. I'm fine with moving it to the income and/or sales tax.

In my perfect world, it would be a sales or consumption tax so you could directly affect your taxes to some extent and frugality/lack of ostentation would be its own reward. Added to that would be a requirement for changes to the tax rate to require a referendum like a bond package. Pols would say they would never be able to raise the tax, but in reality they would only have to make a convincing case that the money was needed for things people actually care about and that money was not being wasted elsewhere in amounts able to offset the shortfall. Hopefully boutique roundabouts would die a quick and painful death from lack of funding

 

[mmpsteve]

In my perfect world, it would be a sales or consumption tax so you could directly affect your taxes to some extent and frugality/lack of ostentation would be its own reward. Added to that would be a requirement for changes to the tax rate to require a referendum like a bond package. Pols would say they would never be able to raise the tax, but in reality they would only have to make a convincing case that the money was needed for things people actually care about and that money was not being wasted elsewhere in amounts able to offset the shortfall. Hopefully boutique roundabouts would die a quick and painful death from lack of funding

We have a fairly new roundabout near my shop, and it's actually made the traffic much better than it was with a 5-way stop sign. Is it worth it? I don't know, but it has improved the traffic situation.

.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

I would absolutely LOVE it if everyone could get together and decide that property taxes are immoral.

Do we really own anything if we have to pay the government to rent it?

People will say, "but how will we fund the schools? Won't someone think of the children?"

We're going to pay for it one way or another, whether it's income tax, sales tax, or property tax. I'm fine with moving it to the income and/or sales tax.

How about we just charge the folks that have children that use the schools? I know that's not a popular idea.

 

[HoughMade]

How about we just charge the folks that have children that use the schools? I know that's not a popular idea.

You're going to have a problem with the Indiana Constitution.

 

[BugI02]

How about we just charge the folks that have children that use the schools? I know that's not a popular idea.

DD, stop me if you've heard this song before. The quality of the school district underpins to a great degree (if the district is good) the value and salability of your house. You benefit from that whether you have kids in the district or even if you home school. Some of the ease of which, and value for which, you can sell your home depends on the belief of the next owner that he can move in and send his kids to get a good education in that same district. The cost of maintaining it at a high level is low compared to the time and money necessary to rebuild it's reputation once it has fallen

 

[JettaKnight]

DD, stop me if you've heard this song before. The quality of the school district underpins to a great degree (if the district is good) the value and salability of your house. You benefit from that whether you have kids in the district or even if you home school. Some of the ease of which, and value for which, you can sell your home depends on the belief of the next owner that he can move in and send his kids to get a good education in that same district. The cost of maintaining it at a high level is low compared to the time and money necessary to rebuild it's reputation once it has fallen

You live in Columbus, OH, don't you?


Until I met my wife (of Cbus), I never knew how important a school district was when it came to where you live.

 

[BugI02]

That's the real reason people go to the suburbs/exurbs. They can't see a path to fix the big city school districts within their budgets and/or their lifetimes

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Fellas, I know the reasoning, and I (mostly) agree with it. I agree that a decent level of education should be provided. When they want to raise taxes to build a multi-million dollar football stadium, then I have a problem with it. Have a bake sale. Sell really high end pastries. I don't care. More than willing to support things that actually help with the education (not indoctrination) of our future generations. Not willing to pay for things that don't contribute to that goal.

 

[ATM]

What's all this talk of reasoning and willing support in a thread about force and theft?

 

[jamil]

That's the real reason people go to the suburbs/exurbs. They can't see a path to fix the big city school districts within their budgets and/or their lifetimes

This is a really good point. Across the Ohio River is Jefferson County Public Schools. Long story short, let’s just say there is a high demand for homes on my side of the River because JCPS really sucks. The schools in my district are rated very high and home values have risen far beyond what they’d be if our schools sucked too. A lot of young couples move here when their kids near school age.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

DD, stop me if you've heard this song before. The quality of the school district underpins to a great degree (if the district is good) the value and salability of your house. You benefit from that whether you have kids in the district or even if you home school. Some of the ease of which, and value for which, you can sell your home depends on the belief of the next owner that he can move in and send his kids to get a good education in that same district. The cost of maintaining it at a high level is low compared to the time and money necessary to rebuild it's reputation once it has fallen

What's all this talk of reasoning and willing support in a thread about force and theft?

ATM, BugI describes the dynamic above.

Many parents with children want good schools AND are willing to pay the property taxes necessary to support such schools. Once said "good" schools are established, it attracts others to that school district. The increased demand raises property values. Some, wishing to have their house as investments, are likewise attracted to those districts due to rising house values versus other locations nearby.

 

[BugI02]

I live in a close-in suburb that in addition to being desirable for its proximity to everything, has excellent schools and its own fire and police. It has some pretty strict restrictions in place on behavior geared towards minimizing friction. For example, the noise standard is something is too loud if one of your neighbors thinks it is too loud, no "noise in excess of 70 decibels, measured within 20 feet of the residence exceeding a period of 30 minutes ..." blah blah blah. That eliminates argument over technical details. A neighbor can illuminate his own house in any way he wants, with 'dramatic' lighting or area lighting, but no more than 5 lumens can fall on my house. If he wants his back yard lit up like daylight, he can have it; he just can't put big cans on high poles and scatter light everywhere. It would take more lights on lower poles with containment shrouds, but nothing restricts his modification of his own property (except $$$) but he can't disrupt my enjoyment of mine - and code enforcement would require him to notify his neighbors of his intentions, get their input and run it past council for anything other than a small project.

The price I pay for this is that my house cost twice as much (or more) than a comparable house would in the city of Columbus, and my property taxes are about 50% higher on that assessment. The mellow environment, excellent schools and responsive police force mean that I could likely sell my house in a week. During the great recession I could have sold it in a month or less. Houses usually attract multiple offers

The point is, people who live here know what they're paying for and think it is worth every penny; and except for a recent dust up over council members wanting to completely remake a popular park as a showpiece/performance space (and use bond money earmarked for infrastructure to do it) it is a harmonious place. Three of those council members were recalled and the president barely survived the same vote, the council seems to have 'got religion' about unnecessary development and a reminder of who they work for. I don't know about citywide, but my personal experience is that the people who want the freedom to do whatever they please with their property just don't come here or they don't last

 

[jamil]

ATM, BugI describes the dynamic above.

Many parents with children want good schools AND are willing to pay the property taxes necessary to support such schools. Once said "good" schools are established, it attracts others to that school district. The increased demand raises property values. Some, wishing to have their house as investments, are likewise attracted to those districts due to rising house values versus other locations nearby.

That's true, so I think "force" and "theft" have far too low resolution to accurately reflect the complicated world around us.

Is it forced? Well, in that the people living there who own homes, HAVE to pay the assessed property tax, it kinda is. But, there are some areas with low property tax. Insofar as people choose to live in areas with higher property taxes manifests at least some choice being made. They are willing to make the trade off of paying higher taxes, in return for something else the area offers that they value.

Is it theft? It's harder to make the case that people who willingly move to areas with higher taxes, are being robbed.


<rant>

Not to derail the topic into a discussion of the necessity of taxation, I think taxation is not generally theft to the extent that the money goes to legitimate purposes. For example, my tax dollars which go to Planned Parenthood are stolen from me. My tax dollars which to pay for wasteful spending, or any corruption, are stolen. My tax dollars which go towards redistributive programs are stolen. Living in Indiana, I'd say the taxes which support our district's schools is well spent, so mostly not theft.

We have some of the best schools in the state. When I lived in Louisville, taxes which went to fund JCPS were stolen, insofar as the portion which contributed to the poor quality of education there. They throw money at whimsical utopian policies and it's not helping. The board is filled with ideologues who can't admit that their educational philosophies are bat**** crazy. They are indeed stealing money from tax payers.

​

</rant>

 

[jamil]

I live in a close-in suburb that in addition to being desirable for its proximity to everything, has excellent schools and its own fire and police. It has some pretty strict restrictions in place on behavior geared towards minimizing friction. For example, the noise standard is something is too loud if one of your neighbors thinks it is too loud, no "noise in excess of 70 decibels, measured within 20 feet of the residence exceeding a period of 30 minutes ..." blah blah blah. That eliminates argument over technical details. A neighbor can illuminate his own house in any way he wants, with 'dramatic' lighting or area lighting, but no more than 5 lumens can fall on my house. If he wants his back yard lit up like daylight, he can have it; he just can't put big cans on high poles and scatter light everywhere. It would take more lights on lower poles with containment shrouds, but nothing restricts his modification of his own property (except $$$) but he can't disrupt my enjoyment of mine - and code enforcement would require him to notify his neighbors of his intentions, get their input and run it past council for anything other than a small project.

The price I pay for this is that my house cost twice as much (or more) than a comparable house would in the city of Columbus, and my property taxes are about 50% higher on that assessment. The mellow environment, excellent schools and responsive police force mean that I could likely sell my house in a week. During the great recession I could have sold it in a month or less. Houses usually attract multiple offers

The point is, people who live here know what they're paying for and think it is worth every penny; and except for a recent dust up over council members wanting to completely remake a popular park as a showpiece/performance space (and use bond money earmarked for infrastructure to do it) it is a harmonious place. Three of those council members were recalled and the president barely survived the same vote, the council seems to have 'got religion' about unnecessary development and a reminder of who they work for. I don't know about citywide, but my personal experience is that the people who want the freedom to do whatever they please with their property just don't come here or they don't last

Or, you could live out in the country where no one gives a **** because your neighbors are so far away most stuff just doesn't matter. It's a trade-off. You can accept highly restrictive rules on what you may do on and with your property in exchange for restricting your neighbor from things which may bother you.

Or, you could live where you can pretty much do whatever you want on your property, and with your property, and the neighbors are far enough away that you don't care what they do. I don't have that situation now. I live in a rural neighborhood. I do miss rural living outside of a neighborhood though. The trade-off of country living is that you're miles from everything. But you accept that for freer use of your own property. It's a matter of priorities.

 

[ATOMonkey]

I think that taxes are theft in as much as they aren't voluntary.

If someone or several someones want something bad enough, they'll find a way to voluntarily pay for it.

 

[BugI02]

Or, you could live out in the country where no one gives a **** because your neighbors are so far away most stuff just doesn't matter. It's a trade-off. You can accept highly restrictive rules on what you may do on and with your property in exchange for restricting your neighbor from things which may bother you.

Or, you could live where you can pretty much do whatever you want on your property, and with your property, and the neighbors are far enough away that you don't care what they do. I don't have that situation now. I live in a rural neighborhood. I do miss rural living outside of a neighborhood though. The trade-off of country living is that you're miles from everything. But you accept that for freer use of your own property. It's a matter of priorities.

The Hocking Hills area about 50-60 miles SE is our Brown Co. I have a friend who bought 14 acres well off the beaten path, then retired and built a very nice home there far back from the county road he lives on. I'm not quite ready for the well water/septic tank/leech bed style of existence just yet, but 'some' people might have bug-out cabins down there I've heard

 

[KLB]

Or, you could live out in the country where no one gives a **** because your neighbors are so far away most stuff just doesn't matter. It's a trade-off. You can accept highly restrictive rules on what you may do on and with your property in exchange for restricting your neighbor from things which may bother you.

Or, you could live where you can pretty much do whatever you want on your property, and with your property, and the neighbors are far enough away that you don't care what they do. I don't have that situation now. I live in a rural neighborhood. I do miss rural living outside of a neighborhood though. The trade-off of country living is that you're miles from everything. But you accept that for freer use of your own property. It's a matter of priorities.

So true. I moved into the country 14 years ago, and I won't go back until they put me in a home. I'm about eight miles from town/shopping, which is plenty close.

 

[JettaKnight]

What's all this talk of reasoning and willing support in a thread about force and theft?

 

[jamil]

The Hocking Hills area about 50-60 miles SE is our Brown Co. I have a friend who bought 14 acres well off the beaten path, then retired and built a very nice home there far back from the county road he lives on. I'm not quite ready for the well water/septic tank/leech bed style of existence just yet, but 'some' people might have bug-out cabins down there I've heard

Septic systems aren't all that bad. Just keep em maintained. And don't do stupid stuff on your drain field. And don't flush stuff that shouldn't be flushed.

I had to make a compromise. I did not want to live in a neighborhood. I wanted more land. But also I wanted a sane commute to Louisville. So I'm pretty far out, but I still live in a neighborhood of sorts. Not many rules though. Mostly just county ordinances. You put up with stuff because your neighbors have to put up with you.

 

[HoughMade]

Well and septic a non-starter? It's what I grew up with and what I have now. It's a pretty inexpensive price to pay to live in an area where the neighbors are not RIGHT THERE and are live and let live.