Cop orders man to put legal OC gun on ground. Kills him when he tries to comply.

[KellyinAvon]

I tried to read all the posts here but has anyone asked "is this what suicide by cop looks like"?

The way he reacted (or didn't react) to the Police? We don't see the person when they pull their car into the path of a train so we often don't know what suicide by train looks like. It was like he'd resigned himself to not surviving. Edit: Completely dumbfounded by the situation? On drugs?

 

[Denny347]

Regardless of what the guy had -been doing- at the moment the cops came on him he was not a threat.

What he had been doing prior to the police interaction 100% cannot be separated from the police interaction.

 

[Denny347]

Honestly, I don't know.

I wish someone knew.

Death is it, the end of everything to that individual. It shouldn't be looked at as lightly as it is today. It's a major event. Anything that can be done to prevent it to those that aren't deserving of it, should be done... while also guaranteeing the safety of responding officers.

I don't think anyone has the answer. I don't know how much, or what kind of training is necessary for everyone to make exactly the right decision, every time, when dealing with unknowns of encountering a civilian with a gun.

It sucks when someone dies, and you think it shouldn't have ended that way. It sucks for that person, the family of that person, and the cop that did it. Again, we all can look at an incident and think of every way *we* would have prevented it... but every person involved in the incident, their minds are running a mile a second, and not everyone can make the *exact right choices*, or see the future. I think everyone here can acknowledge that.

There's probably some sourness when it comes to police shootings, because the officers that may have made a poor decision will usually not be dealt with the same as a civilian would. There's a level of inequality there that, probably, does need to exist to make everything work.

I don't know. I just hate when it happens and seems like it didn't need to.

I understand the emotional response to police action shootings. Emotions tend to cloud the review process however.

 

[Ziggidy]

None of us were there. None of us witnessed what was going before or during the incident (except for short videoclip). All we do know is what we have seen and what has been "told to us". Each one of us perceives the info differently; however, adding to the narrative to support our own thoughts or to question the thoughts of those who were there. What are the facts as we know them? Until we can see and digest all the facts before us, all we have are opinions....that seemingly are irritating many. To suggest this is or may be a racial thing certainly adds to the tension between us as it also adds to the agenda of many groups (BLM and such)......erroneously.

I cannot tell if the officer is justified or not. I can only speculate what I would do.

Divide and conquer; it's working well.

Happy Easter, He is Risen!

 

[Denny347]

It is unclear to me from watching these vids if he actually had the gun in his hand as this unfolded or if he pulled it in order to drop it as ordered when he was shot. Can someone clarify this?

Who would be able to clarify that here? Therein lies the core issue. You have the advantage of time and video to review and try to answer your questions. We in the field, do not. We cannot judge the reasonableness on what we know now but only what the officers knew at the time the force was applied and to know that. We would have to ask the officer pulling the trigger for that is the only perspective that matters.

 

[Joniki]

I honestly believe that these LEO involved shootings would go away if people would just comply....

 

[chipbennett]

There was a time not too long ago when I would have said the same things - comply and then sort it out later. However, there have been enough recent cases where black people have been on the wrong end of a 'shoot first and ask questions later' mentality - it's clearly understandable why many black people fear the police.

Data don't back up this assertion.

 

[IndyDave1776]

I tried to read all the posts here but has anyone asked "is this what suicide by cop looks like"?

Good point. I had considered the possibility of a "swatting" by the likes of Shannon's Misguided Mommies but failed to consider this.

 

[Cameramonkey]

I tried to read all the posts here but has anyone asked "is this what suicide by cop looks like"?

Either that or he bought into the Shot While Being Black narrative and gave up assuming he was going to die that day no matter what he did. That could explain his "I heard you the first time" comment as he was just waiting to be shot assuming that was the outcome, guaranteed.

I think we can all assume that was not a guarantee.

 

[rhino]

Topic title should probably edited to remove the "legal OC" part.

 

[IndyDave1776]

All said and done, the only thing I can find right with this situation is that the sun came up that day.

 

[A 7.62 Exodus]

What pray tell do you suggest the officers should have done?

Easy. The gun in clearly in his waistband when they were yelling at him to "drop the gun." It's sort of hard to drop something you're not holding. Instead of shouting at him like a bunch of cavemen when he's not even holding the firearm, someone needs to say "Sir, put your hands on the top of the vehicle. Then slowly reach into your waistband, grab the end of your weapon, and slowly place in on the ground."

My job requires countless hours of communications training, and how to communicate well in stressful situations, and all of that got thrown out the window here. In fact, I'm almost kind of shocked. Had the suspect been HOLDING and BRANDISHING the firearm when the police arrived, this would have been a clean shoot no doubt. Instead, they shoot him for trying to comply with orders. 'DROP THE GUN DROP THE GUN RIGHT NOW!" You're going to reach for, and drop the gun. We as humans have a vocabulary of language at our disposal, so vague three letter sentences can easily be crafted into much more precise instructions.

This man got shot doing exactly what the police were telling him to do: dropping the gun. When you give vague instructions, you may not get exactly what you're looking for.

 

[LP1]

Data don't back up this assertion.

False. Although in large numbers, complying might work (and as a clean-cut white male, that would be my course of action), there have been enough well-publicized situations that it's perfectly reasonable for a black person to fear interacting with the police. I wish I knew the answer, but expecting people who've had a much different cultural experience to see the world through our eyes is unreasonable.

 

[Route 45]

False. Although in large numbers, complying might work (and as a clean-cut white male, that would be my course of action), there have been enough well-publicized situations that it's perfectly reasonable for a black person to fear interacting with the police. I wish I knew the answer, but expecting people who've had a much different cultural experience to see the world through our eyes is unreasonable.

If only there was some way to avoid regular interaction with the police...

 

[craigkim]

In what world do people show so little concern when police officers have guns drawn and ready?

 

[ditcherman]

Data don't back up this assertion.

False. Although in large numbers, complying might work (and as a clean-cut white male, that would be my course of action), there have been enough well-publicized situations that it's perfectly reasonable for a black person to fear interacting with the police. I wish I knew the answer, but expecting people who've had a much different cultural experience to see the world through our eyes is unreasonable.

I believe you are both right, one is measuring data and one is based on perception and feelings of a group that has been profiled for sure, but has also been fed some stuff to gin up a certain reaction, and either not been taught how to react/behave, or have a very fatalistic view. They're not wrong in feeling that way. You two have measuring different things.

 

[phylodog]

Some people arent just cut out to be cops. They shoot innocent people, fail to run toward gunfire to save children in a high school, etc.

You can thank politics and the media that fewer and fewer who are cut out to be cops are willing to do so.

 

[ditcherman]

Easy. The gun in clearly in his waistband when they were yelling at him to "drop the gun." It's sort of hard to drop something you're not holding. Instead of shouting at him like a bunch of cavemen when he's not even holding the firearm, someone needs to say "Sir, put your hands on the top of the vehicle. Then slowly reach into your waistband, grab the end of your weapon, and slowly place in on the ground."

My job requires countless hours of communications training, and how to communicate well in stressful situations, and all of that got thrown out the window here. In fact, I'm almost kind of shocked. Had the suspect been HOLDING and BRANDISHING the firearm when the police arrived, this would have been a clean shoot no doubt. Instead, they shoot him for trying to comply with orders. 'DROP THE GUN DROP THE GUN RIGHT NOW!" You're going to reach for, and drop the gun. We as humans have a vocabulary of language at our disposal, so vague three letter sentences can easily be crafted into much more precise instructions.

This man got shot doing exactly what the police were telling him to do: dropping the gun. When you give vague instructions, you may not get exactly what you're looking for.

Do you have x-ray vision? Do you have the missing 9 minutes of video? I just don't see how you can see that. It sure looks like it came out of a pocket or it was in his right hand the whole time.
The officers couldn't even see him at the beginning of the video we have, he was behind the car crouched down. They probably said what they did ​because they were told that was the case. Then when they came around the car they kept saying the same thing because they didn't have enough new info to make a different conclusion, and maybe, just maybe, they were trained to not give conflicting orders between officers.
He had 24 chances to say ok, whoa, put his hands up, whatever and I wish he would have but we'll never know why he didn't.

 

[Trigger Time]

The man should’ve said “it’s in my pocket and I’m not reaching for it”. This (or carrying in a proper holster) and he would be alive today. Could or should have the officer used more restraint? Possibly. Could the deceased man have done several things to increase his odds of getting through the situational alive? Definitely.

Yep.
If im ever in this situation im going to speak to the police very clear but also like i would a 5 year old so that they can understand me. Im not touching my damn gun if its not already in my hand, no freaking way. They can taze me, beat me whatever but im not touching it, they can come get it. I will let them know that too.
If its in my hand im dropping it the first cop i see roll up.
I will always assume the cops WILL shoot me. Im not pretending they are my buddies or on the same side when they roll up to a call about shots fired or a man with a gun. They are thinking one thing and thats about going home and the gun I have. Can't say I blame them. After the tense part is over, thats when we can all shake hands and be friends and explanations can be given.

 

[Sigblitz]

I tried to read all the posts here but has anyone asked "is this what suicide by cop looks like"?

IMO he was on an attention seeking mission. The girl stood right beside him saying he had a gun. They had to tell her to get out of the way. And he had 24 more chances to get attention.