The Open Carry Argument

[Phase2]

Ah, searched for a couple of keywords before posting, but didn't see it. I'm not a regular in this thread.

 

[goldsmithr3]

I have to agree. From the standpoint of the merchant, an armed felon who has checked out the store in advance of the crime, may just wait for the opportunity to stand off at a distance and take out anyone obviously armed. I have no quarrel with those who wish to open carry, and support that right. From a tactical standpoint, I respectfully prefer concealed but accessible.

 

[Dead Duck]

I have to agree. From the standpoint of the merchant, an armed felon who has checked out the store in advance of the crime, may just wait for the opportunity to stand off at a distance and take out anyone obviously armed. I have no quarrel with those who wish to open carry, and support that right. From a tactical standpoint, I respectfully prefer concealed but accessible.

....or simply do it another time because they see someone carrying. Don't you think that might actually deter the bad guys from attempting something?

 

[wtburnette]

....or simply do it another time because they see someone carrying. Don't you think that might actually deter the bad guys from attempting something?

Which is what John Lott and other researchers have found when interviewing criminals on the matter. Lots of people would rather feel like they're safe than actually do something that would make them safer.

 

[protias]

I have to agree. From the standpoint of the merchant, an armed felon who has checked out the store in advance of the crime, may just wait for the opportunity to stand off at a distance and take out anyone obviously armed. I have no quarrel with those who wish to open carry, and support that right. From a tactical standpoint, I respectfully prefer concealed but accessible.

You do know that the "element of surprise" is an offensive tactic, not defensive, right? From a tactical standpoint, you don't see (very many at least) people attacking police stations, gun stores (while people are in there), gun ranges, etc, etc, where guns are present right? Why is that? Maybe because criminals want soft targets (or that appear soft) rather than very hard targets. How many people have you seen attack Fort Knox? People with visible guns deter criminals more than those that are hidden.

 

[Dead Duck]

***WARNING**** There's language.
Robbing a "COP" bar.

[video=youtube;3GAgIBgOA3M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GAgIBgOA3M[/video]

[video=youtube;8jpxSvnufkg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jpxSvnufkg[/video]

 

[MCgrease08]

You do know that the "element of surprise" is an offensive tactic, not defensive, right? From a tactical standpoint, you don't see (very many at least) people attacking police stations, gun stores (while people are in there), gun ranges, etc, etc, where guns are present right? Why is that? Maybe because criminals want soft targets (or that appear soft) rather than very hard targets. How many people have you seen attack Fort Knox? People with visible guns deter criminals more than those that are hidden.

I'm going to have to disagree with this.

It is true that the bad guy always has an advantage starting out, as in they choose when the crime / attack / assault happens. Self defenders are always entering the encounter at a force deficit, but the element of surprise comes into play for defenders quite frequently. Often complying at the start is a good tactic for self defenders because at some point you will have an opportunity when the bad guy's focus is somewhere else, and that is when you pick your spot for a counter attack. It's all about waiting your turn.

If you haven't seen the Active Self Protection YouTube channel I encourage everyone to check it out. "Waiting your turn" is a theme you see fairly often in these videos. Here's one recent example.

[video=youtube_share;RcSDVC42DTg]http://youtu.be/RcSDVC42DTg[/video]

I'm a big proponent of open carry for the fact that it helps to destigmatize normal everyday citizens carrying guns. And we'll never really know how many times a criminal abandons a planned crime due to open carriers, but I have no doubt that it does happen. All of that said, the more I watch what happens with these types of self defender situations, the more value I see in having a gun hidden. It gives you a lot more opportunity to wait your turn and hide your draw.

 

[2A_Tom]

I have to agree. From the standpoint of the merchant, an armed felon who has checked out the store in advance of the crime, may just wait for the opportunity to stand off at a distance and take out anyone obviously armed. I have no quarrel with those who wish to open carry, and support that right. From a tactical standpoint, I respectfully prefer concealed but accessible.

I guess if you are a felon, escalating from armed robbery to first degree murder is no problem. Or you could come back later, I do not know. WWFD?

 

[protias]

I'm going to have to disagree with this.

It is true that the bad guy always has an advantage starting out, as in they choose when the crime / attack / assault happens. Self defenders are always entering the encounter at a force deficit, but the element of surprise comes into play for defenders quite frequently. Often complying at the start is a good tactic for self defenders because at some point you will have an opportunity when the bad guy's focus is somewhere else, and that is when you pick your spot for a counter attack. It's all about waiting your turn.

If you haven't seen the Active Self Protection YouTube channel I encourage everyone to check it out. "Waiting your turn" is a theme you see fairly often in these videos. Here's one recent example.

[video=youtube_share;RcSDVC42DTg]http://youtu.be/RcSDVC42DTg[/video]

I'm a big proponent of open carry for the fact that it helps to destigmatize normal everyday citizens carrying guns. And we'll never really know how many times a criminal abandons a planned crime due to open carriers, but I have no doubt that it does happen. All of that said, the more I watch what happens with these types of self defender situations, the more value I see in having a gun hidden. It gives you a lot more opportunity to wait your turn and hide your draw.

I know the channel well. That being said, notice how these encounters, the criminal "gets the drop" on the victims by conceal carrying, an offensive tactic, then the CCer is "forced" to defend himself to preserve his life, where the OCer avoids the confrontation from the beginning. You rarely hear about a OCer having to defend himself. It happens, but extremely rare.

 

[wtburnette]

I know the channel well. That being said, notice how these encounters, the criminal "gets the drop" on the victims by conceal carrying, an offensive tactic, then the CCer is "forced" to defend himself to preserve his life, where the OCer avoids the confrontation from the beginning. You rarely hear about a OCer having to defend himself. It happens, but extremely rare.

Exactly. Not saying you can't turn the situation around, but if open carrying can be a deterrent, then you don't get accosted in the first place and don't have to worry about turning the situation around.

 

[MCgrease08]

I know the channel well. That being said, notice how these encounters, the criminal "gets the drop" on the victims by conceal carrying, an offensive tactic, then the CCer is "forced" to defend himself to preserve his life, where the OCer avoids the confrontation from the beginning. You rarely hear about a OCer having to defend himself. It happens, but extremely rare.

I agree with the spirit of this and acknowledge as much in my reply. But I still think the element of surprise absolutely plays a part in defensive encounters. Using a blanket statement like the element of surprise is a strictly offensive tactic just isn't accurate.

Exactly. Not saying you can't turn the situation around, but if open carrying can be a deterrent, then you don't get accosted in the first place and don't have to worry about turning the situation around.

Again, I agree an OC is probably less likely to be targeted in general, but criminals have self-awareness deficiencies just like anyone.

Using the video I posted above as an example, one of those men could have very well been open carrying and the attacker could have easily missed that prior to launching the stick up attempt.

But as the old saying goes, you can't out draw a drawn gun, so in that instance OCing makes it veey difficult to wait your turn and disguse a counter attack. Again, all of these scenarios are "what ifs" and could be debated all day.

I am pro open carry and do it more frequently than most, but I do acknowledge that there are some potential draw backs to it, mainly, hiding the draw should one find themself in a self defense situation for whatever reason.

 

[wtburnette]

I agree with what you're saying.

I disagree with those who use the "get a drop on the bad guy" argument to "win" the discussion. That's when I bring up the deterrent argument. There are times when OC is best and there are times when CC is best. Knowing what to do depending on how you're carrying is critical.

 

[JettaKnight]

My OWB holster is more comfortable than my supertucks. Ergo, OC is superior because it's better for my posture.






Well, if I wear a sport coat then it's CC, but otherwise it's OC because I'm not a troglodyte so I tuck my shirts in.

 

[KLB]

My OWB holster is more comfortable than my spuertucks. Ergo, OC is superior because it's better for my posture.






Well, if I wear a sport coat then it's CC, but otherwise it's OC because I'm not a troglodyte so I tuck my shirts in.

 

[MCgrease08]

My OWB holster is more comfortable than my spuertucks. Ergo, OC is superior because it's better for my posture.






Well, if I wear a sport coat then it's CC, but otherwise it's OC because I'm not a troglodyte so I tuck my shirts in.

This is pretty much where I am too. My Safariland OWB paddle holster is very comfortable and what I wear more often than not. Shirt tucked in unless it's a t-shirt.

That means OC by default. CC when wearing a coat.

 

[2A_Tom]

I will be comfortable until a five year old girl disarms me. I will then comfortable in the fact she will not be able to release the safety.

 

[2A_Tom]

Stopped by the store and as i walked by a guy he tells me "You need to cover that thing up." to which I said "That's your opinion and you are welcome to it."

So he keeps up with "I've got mine right here, but It is covered so no one c knows I have it." (He just saus this in the parking lot with others around, idiot) I just try to disengage, but I cannot get a cart unlocked. A young guy walks in past me and I shrug and give him a look of "Help"

The next thing I know is the security Guard is coming out to see what is going on.

Why do some people need to go all Libprogocrat and tell others what to do?

 

[Skywired]

Simply put: Our country has been taken over by liberals. Between the immoral, corrupt and many criminal Congressmen and Senators, plus the 'hater' journalists.... they lead and influence the majority of our population. The same population with an average reading ability of a sixth grader. We need to revert to the call of our original Constitution. Whereby intelligent active volunteer leaders commit to serve Congress for a two year period. And thereafter, they return to their wives and lives....

We need to eliminate the current policy of Senators/Congressmen for life...... And we need to do it now!

 

[KLB]

Stopped by the store and as i walked by a guy he tells me "You need to cover that thing up." to which I said "That's your opinion and you are welcome to it."

So he keeps up with "I've got mine right here, but It is covered so no one c knows I have it." (He just saus this in the parking lot with others around, idiot) I just try to disengage, but I cannot get a cart unlocked. A young guy walks in past me and I shrug and give him a look of "Help"

The next thing I know is the security Guard is coming out to see what is going on.

Why do some people need to go all Libprogocrat and tell others what to do?

People seem to have a desire to have others think and do as they do. Others are just misinformed. Some fall into both categories.

 

[chipbennett]

Stopped by the store and as i walked by a guy he tells me "You need to cover that thing up." to which I said "That's your opinion and you are welcome to it."

So he keeps up with "I've got mine right here, but It is covered so no one c knows I have it." (He just saus this in the parking lot with others around, idiot) I just try to disengage, but I cannot get a cart unlocked. A young guy walks in past me and I shrug and give him a look of "Help"

The next thing I know is the security Guard is coming out to see what is going on.

Why do some people need to go all Libprogocrat and tell others what to do?

Concealed means concealed, except when you announce to the whole world that you're concealing.