Legalization of Marijuana?

[KLB]

If you are going with the delusion that simply legalizing weed will end the problem of criminality/black market, please cite your evidence that the 21st amendment alone ended the power of the mob (rather than that they simply used their power and reach to maintain the cash flows by other extra-legal means). The cartels are not werewolves and legalization is not a silver bullet

Every libertarian seems to think that legalization solves all problems, when in reality it doesn't even solve their own

And all conservatives want to use the power of the government to impose their moral will on everyone else. Right?

 

[BugI02]

Well, since everyone who doesn't support chaos is obviously a statist, I'm sure 3 to 4% of the electorate probably think so

 

[indyartisan]

“If we are going to make plants illegal and pay government employees to try to eradicate them we should start with poison ivy and dandlelions”
Heard on WIBC

 

[ATOMonkey]

If you are going with the delusion that simply legalizing weed will end the problem of criminality/black market, please cite your evidence that the 21st amendment alone ended the power of the mob (rather than that they simply used their power and reach to maintain the cash flows by other extra-legal means). The cartels are not werewolves and legalization is not a silver bullet

Every libertarian seems to think that legalization solves all problems, when in reality it doesn't even solve their own

Without a doubt, the 21st amendment virtually eliminated moonshining as a profession. No, it didn't eliminate the mob, but it forced them to move to different revenue streams. Protection rackets, money laundering, murder for hire, and the sort.

Also without a doubt, the sale of drugs funds criminal behavior. My goal is to eliminate as many streams of revenue as possible in order to shrink their influence. There is no eliminating crime, but we don't need to make it easy for criminals to fund their lifestyle either.

 

[ATOMonkey]

“If we are going to make plants illegal and pay government employees to try to eradicate them we should start with poison ivy and dandlelions”
Heard on WIBC

When you make dandelions illegal, only criminals will have dandelions.

 

[jamil]

If you are going with the delusion that simply legalizing weed will end the problem of criminality/black market, please cite your evidence that the 21st amendment alone ended the power of the mob (rather than that they simply used their power and reach to maintain the cash flows by other extra-legal means). The cartels are not werewolves and legalization is not a silver bullet

Every libertarian seems to think that legalization solves all problems, when in reality it doesn't even solve their own

Although you didn't say it right, I know what you mean. That legalizing weed ends the criminality/black market is a tautology. If it's legal, it's not criminality. If it's on the open market, there's no need for a black market. Both points are more nuanced though. Even legal things are regulated at least a little, and there is a small black market for unregulated goods, and therefore some criminality associated with it. But, the point is clearly made that it has to be illegal to have criminality. Less illegal = less criminality. Fat people are fat. Tautologies.

But my main objection is that you're saying I'm saying more than I'm saying. I'm not saying it's a silver bullet. It's not a binary. And I'm not a libertarian. I'm libertarian-ish on some issues. You can't cluster me in with some ideological identify simply because I might agree with some group on some thing. I'm not a groupie of anything really.

And the quoted post is a specific response to a comment. There is a lot more than I've written about what I think of this issue. I haven't said anywhere that I think legalization solves all problems. I think it solves *some* problems. And I'm not in favor of legalizing all drugs. Just *some* drugs. Just like I'm not okay with giving ordinary citizens the right to own and use nukes, I'm also not okay with some drugs, because I think some drugs can't be used in a way that doesn't harm others. I'm generally a live and let live advocate. But if people do things which can't help but harm others, I think it's fine to restrict that. MJ? Eh, that's just not in that category.

 

[jamil]

I think you have overstated the amount of thought going into some of these positions

The feel I get is that many arguments devolve to the law is widely ignored and many people violate the law with apparently no lasting consequences, so basede on anecdotal evidence the law is bad/untenable

You could say the same for speed limits. The question is whether that should encourage one to eliminate them altogether or just adjust them closer to reality. The choice seems to be between chaos and some semblance of order

Is there a black market for speed limits? Is there organized crime built around a business model of peddling speeding? I don't think the two are similar enough in the right ways to make it all that relevant.

 

[jamil]

Well, since everyone who doesn't support chaos is obviously a statist, I'm sure 3 to 4% of the electorate probably think so

Surely you get that this is hyperbolic. Libertarians aren't all anarchists though some are. They tend to use "harm" as the basis for law. People smoke MJ, and it's not harming me if people smoke it, as long as I don't have to pay for their lazy asses, at least the ones who are lazy asses.

 

[BugI02]

Is there a black market for speed limits? Is there organized crime built around a business model of peddling speeding? I don't think the two are similar enough in the right ways to make it all that relevant.

Don't be deliberately obtuse. The poster was arguing that the law is widely flouted and using that as justification for repeal. The speed limit analogy is apt. Wasn't the Ferguson police department accused of using traffic enforcement as a rainmaking activity for the city? Wouldn't that constitute a black market activity vis a vis merely ensuring public safety (not saying the accusation is true, just referencing the idea of 'speed traps')

 

[BugI02]

Although you didn't say it right, I know what you mean. That legalizing weed ends the criminality/black market is a tautology. If it's legal, it's not criminality. If it's on the open market, there's no need for a black market. Both points are more nuanced though. Even legal things are regulated at least a little, and there is a small black market for unregulated goods, and therefore some criminality associated with it. But, the point is clearly made that it has to be illegal to have criminality. Less illegal = less criminality. Fat people are fat. Tautologies.

But my main objection is that you're saying I'm saying more than I'm saying. I'm not saying it's a silver bullet. It's not a binary. And I'm not a libertarian. I'm libertarian-ish on some issues. You can't cluster me in with some ideological identify simply because I might agree with some group on some thing. I'm not a groupie of anything really.

And the quoted post is a specific response to a comment. There is a lot more than I've written about what I think of this issue. I haven't said anywhere that I think legalization solves all problems. I think it solves *some* problems. And I'm not in favor of legalizing all drugs. Just *some* drugs. Just like I'm not okay with giving ordinary citizens the right to own and use nukes, I'm also not okay with some drugs, because I think some drugs can't be used in a way that doesn't harm others. I'm generally a live and let live advocate. But if people do things which can't help but harm others, I think it's fine to restrict that. MJ? Eh, that's just not in that category.

IMO, this is also covered by the injunction against obtuseness. What is being implied is that legalizing weed will end the black market problem not just for than weed, that it will somehow drastically weaken the bad actors. This is manifestly not the case and is a specious reason for legalization. It might put your local dealer out of business but it will not seriously weaken the cartels which, like the mob, are involved in a broad array of unsavory activity

You are free to consider it an aberration, but I consider anyone for whom the legalization of leaf is more important than a large number of real problems facing the country right now to be at least an honorary libertarian. I actually formed that opinion on INGO where the correlation of libertarian to those vociferously calling for legalization is virtually 1:1

Obviously, as a statist (as all non-true believers are), legalizing does't even make my top 20 list of things we should spend our time and energy accomplishing

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

Approximately every 19 minutes someone dies an opioid related death.
Approximately every 48 minutes someone dies an alcohol related death.

Friggin Unicorns have killed more people than cannabis EVER has .

Legalize it already .

 

[BugI02]

Not exactly. To the best of my knowledge, unicorns have never killed anyone; but I could point you to a case where a pilot who was high (determined by the post crash blood test) took a Bonanza from his flying club up for a joyride and starved it of fuel and crashed it because he took off and flew with the selector on a partially full tip tank. 2 dead on the plane and one more on the ground

So I make that Unicorns 0 Potheads 3 in the floppy column

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Approximately every 19 minutes someone dies an opioid related death.
Approximately every 48 minutes someone dies an alcohol related death.

Friggin Unicorns have killed more people than cannabis EVER has .

Legalize it already .

It would be interesting to see the stats on that before and after the "crackdown" on prescription opioids. It seems to me that it has risen drastically after folks that had legitimate pain issues were deprived of their previously "legal", pharmaceutic drugs and forced to seek relief on the street in the form of heroin. They may have been addicts before, but at least they were getting clean, known opioids in a controlled fashion (limited by their doctors, pharmacists and insurance companies). When the alternative is to seek out your local heroin dealer? Probably not a good outcome.

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

Not exactly. To the best of my knowledge, unicorns have never killed anyone; but I could point you to a case where a pilot who was high (determined by the post crash blood test) took a Bonanza from his flying club up for a joyride and starved it of fuel and crashed it because he took off and flew with the selector on a partially full tip tank. 2 dead on the plane and one more on the ground

So I make that Unicorns 0 Potheads 3 in the floppy column

Correlation does not equal causation, just because he had cannabis in his system does not mean he was ' high ' at the time he displayed his humanity and forgot to flip a switch.

 

[Lex Concord]

When you make dandelions illegal, only criminals will have dandelions.

Some here already believe that possession of a certain amount of dandelions should be criminal.

 

[BugI02]

Correlation does not equal causation, just because he had cannabis in his system does not mean he was ' high ' at the time he displayed his humanity and forgot to flip a switch.

A bit more than that. I say joyride advisedly. He wasn't certified for that particular aircraft, he stole the keys and took it out at night. Regs required him to have had three takeoffs and landings to a full stop in the preceding 90 days to carry passengers. Part of the checklist is to take off and land on the fullest tank(s)

So - he broke his club rules, flaunted regs and arguably didn't follow the checklist (the fullest tank requirement is on every checklist of whatever I have flown) as well as had a fatal overconfidence in his own ability. That alone could make a good argument that he indeed was high, but as I recall the levels were considerably more than a trace (DOT post accident test is thorough)

He was turning tight right base to final in a steep turn and was running off the left tank. He unported the fuel pick up, the engine quit and he stuffed it into an apartment building. Weeds an intoxicant, there are likely many more incidents. I'm familiar with a few and thus can say unequivocally that leaf has killed way more people than unicorns have

 

[jamil]

Not exactly. To the best of my knowledge, unicorns have never killed anyone; but I could point you to a case where a pilot who was high (determined by the post crash blood test) took a Bonanza from his flying club up for a joyride and starved it of fuel and crashed it because he took off and flew with the selector on a partially full tip tank. 2 dead on the plane and one more on the ground

So I make that Unicorns 0 Potheads 3 in the floppy column

If only pot would have been more illegaller.

 

[Mongo59]

If only pot would have been more illegaller.

It was the club's fault, they didn't have a "weed free" sign displayed at the airport...

 

[BugI02]

If only pot would have been more illegaller.

If only being willing to risk personal and professional disaster just to get high would actually hint to the user that they might have a problem

 

[Timjoebillybob]

but as I recall the levels were considerably more than a trace (DOT post accident test is thorough)

Most drug screens don't test for active THC, they test for the metabolites which can stay in your system for a month or longer. So it is possible that he wasn't high.