$1k per adult, $500 per kid

[BehindBlueI's]

I have concerns, like I assume others do, about the mechanics of this and how it will ultimately be executed.

I'm sure. Just like I'm sure some people will complain regardless and some will complain about what they imagine it to be. There will be cries of "socialism" no matter what. Ultimately it's in all of our best interest if we don't have massive unemployment, if our manufacturing base doesn't shut down, etc. If the virus is a real concern or not, the shuttering of businesses and an economic crash is a national security issue. We are likely in a "least bad option" position at this point and there will be unforeseen consequences regardless.

 

[HoughMade]

Why? That hasn't been the case with any other stimulus payout.

https://taxfoundation.org/did-2001-...ulate-consumption-economic-evidence-stimulus/

 

[HoughMade]

 

[HoughMade]

I'm sure. Just like I'm sure some people will complain regardless and some will complain about what they imagine it to be. There will be cries of "socialism" no matter what. Ultimately it's in all of our best interest if we don't have massive unemployment, if our manufacturing base doesn't shut down, etc. If the virus is a real concern or not, the shuttering of businesses and an economic crash is a national security issue. We are likely in a "least bad option" position at this point and there will be unforeseen consequences regardless.

It is socialism. So is Social Security and Medicare and Medicaid and any form or welfare. The question was never, in reality, whether we will accept socialism, it's how much socialism will we accept?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

https://taxfoundation.org/did-2001-...ulate-consumption-economic-evidence-stimulus/

And?

 

[PistolBob]

No individual relief bill has been passed yet...it keeps changing too

 

[BehindBlueI's]

It is socialism. So is Social Security and Medicare and Medicaid and any form or welfare. The question was never, in reality, whether we will accept socialism, it's how much socialism will we accept?

No, it isn't. INGO/conservative radio socialism is whatever we don't like the government to spend money on. Socialism is government, or collective, ownership of the means of production. The government owing the air waves and leasing space for radio channels, that's socialism. Taxing and using the money isn't socialism.

 

[ditcherman]

No, it isn't. INGO/conservative radio socialism is whatever we don't like the government to spend money on. Socialism is government, or collective, ownership of the means of production. The government owing the air waves and leasing space for radio channels, that's socialism. Taxing and using the money isn't socialism.

Story time related to this; I used to frequent a farmer coffee shop hangout and they would complain about govt overreach (let’s not even start about subsidies!), it did t matter what they were talking about but I would just start in on a tirade about how lines on the road ( we still have many without) are govt intrusion in our lives. They all shut up. I kinda believe it though.

Its about levels of hypocrisy.

 

[HoughMade]

No, it isn't. INGO/conservative radio socialism is whatever we don't like the government to spend money on. Socialism is government, or collective, ownership of the means of production. The government owing the air waves and leasing space for radio channels, that's socialism. Taxing and using the money isn't socialism.

So I'll just say that the programs I identified are socialist inspired...but so what? Can't Americans take the truth that we have been redistributing wealth "for the good of the society" (root word?) for a long time? Why can't we have an honest discussion about how close we are to true socialism now instead of just throwing the term around like an epithet?

Further, so the government is going to send a grand back to me out of the thousands upon thousands I send it every year- no, not socialist inspired. Sending checks to people who didn't pay $1000 in taxes in 2019....or every, yes, socialism inspired.

Now, some will say it's not socialism inspired because it's a good idea. I don't know if it is or not, but if a person thinks that if we call it "stimulus" its OK and if we call the same actions "socialism inspired", they are an idiot. I am simply tired of the label being the thing people get up in arms about, not the policy...and yes, that's where we are now.

Is it a good idea? Is it a bad idea? Will it make any difference? I don't know, but it IS something a socialist would say is right up his alley, and that really can't be denied.

...but socialists aren't always wrong on everything either.

 

[JettaKnight]

But socialist are communist and communist are evil and liberals are communist and hitler is socialist and everything I hate is socialist and a these handouts will turn frogs gay.

 

[maxwelhse]

I'm glad on got on board with the Dave Ramsey plan when I did. Since September I've paid off just north of $9k worth of consumer debt and built up an emergency fund of about 4 months of expenses so far.

Now that we're in defacto lock down my expenses have dropped even more. (Less fuel used, no after school care costs for kids, no entertainment costs etc.) Ultimately this slow down will allow me to save even more for a down payment on a house next year.

One thing I don't need is for Uncle Sugar to send me a check.

Congrats man! I became debt free on Christmas day of 2019 after a very hard decade. The flip side of that is now I'm also no longer a home owner (sold... not foreclosed or anything). It was looking like the 2020s were going to be my time to shine and really make my second-half life thrust toward retirement and setting myself up for it and buying a nice piece of property and all of that... but... it ain't lookin' so good anymore. We'll see...

I didn't necessarily follow any particular bit of anyone's advice (like Ramsey or other advisors). I just paid off and saved until it hurt, then I twisted the knife, poured salt in the wound, and pushed harder. Well worth it. Since then, I turned my 401k up to the same painful level. Pretty sure it will work out in the long run.

 

[1775usmarine]

IBTL

 

[maxwelhse]

The loss of the 3 others will kills us. Looks like no new truck for the mouse this year.

Thanks China.

I don't want to see any good people suffer over this BS, and if I needed the services anyone on INGO was providing I'd jump on board in these tough times, but...

I'm sorta hoping this effects enough people that they wake up and reclaim their country, their jobs, and their economy for themselves. We should have nothing to do with China and I'm hoping enough dim bulbs out there get a little brighter from this that in the future we'll have at least have less to do with them.

 

[Sigblitz]

Many people worked very hard and were on track for a good fiscal year. Through not fault of their own, these businesses are on the road to failure, effecting the jobs of so many who worked hard to help their place of employment succeed. We have paid so much in taxes, thousands of dollars from each of us. It's time to put it to the best use, saving American jobs. It's our money and our livelihood on the line. And our president gets it.
There will be a lot of capital projects we can't spend money on right now.

 

[Alpo]

I'm not sure that a non-targeted distribution of this sort will improve the economic outlook or reduce the likelihood of a recession.

Perhaps I'm feeling more like Hayek than Keynes at this point, but if we are "regulated" capitalists, perhaps we should let the businesses fail. Do we really need cruise ships that are giant hotels on the water (and breeding grounds for novovirus, etc)? Do we need 12 major airline carriers? Do we need a new jumbo jet with seats that only fit someone shorter than Peter Dinklage? Shouldn't Wall Street raise the money necessary to keep these businesses going since it was Wall Street who reaped the benefits of business investment in the first place?

I say: we ought to be judicious in our assistance to businesses and we ought to identify/target citizens who are deeply and financially affected by a shutdown.

It wouldn't make sense to say: Everyone gets a 30 day holiday on mortgages. No one owes anything for March. But, I can see someone coming up with that as a cool thing to do.

This virus is a once-in-a-generation lesson in sacrifice. I would hope that we don't short-change the lesson by mortgaging our future once again.

 

[HoughMade]

I'm not sure that a non-targeted distribution of this sort will improve the economic outlook or reduce the likelihood of a recession.

Perhaps I'm feeling more like Hayek than Keynes at this point, but if we are "regulated" capitalists, perhaps we should let the businesses fail. Do we really need cruise ships that are giant hotels on the water (and breeding grounds for novovirus, etc)? Do we need 12 major airline carriers? Do we need a new jumbo jet with seats that only fit someone shorter than Peter Dinklage? Shouldn't Wall Street raise the money necessary to keep these businesses going since it was Wall Street who reaped the benefits of business investment in the first place?

I say: we ought to be judicious in our assistance to businesses and we ought to identify/target citizens who are deeply and financially affected by a shutdown.

It wouldn't make sense to say: Everyone gets a 30 day holiday on mortgages. No one owes anything for March. But, I can see someone coming up with that as a cool thing to do.

This virus is a once-in-a-generation lesson in sacrifice. I would hope that we don't short-change the lesson by mortgaging our future once again.

You make a lot of sense.

Sensible, targeted aid will only be reported as discriminating against others (with anyone, but especially Trump), so we can't have rational, targeted responses.

 

[maxwelhse]

I'm not sure that a non-targeted distribution of this sort will improve the economic outlook or reduce the likelihood of a recession.

Perhaps I'm feeling more like Hayek than Keynes at this point, but if we are "regulated" capitalists, perhaps we should let the businesses fail. Do we really need cruise ships that are giant hotels on the water (and breeding grounds for novovirus, etc)? Do we need 12 major airline carriers? Do we need a new jumbo jet with seats that only fit someone shorter than Peter Dinklage? Shouldn't Wall Street raise the money necessary to keep these businesses going since it was Wall Street who reaped the benefits of business investment in the first place?

The problem is that as the US has moved off of a manufacturing base into service sector jobs, those industries represent trillions in revenue for the country. I believe that some of them probably will fold up or consolidate, and probably should, but if nothing was done at all they would all fail over night. It's like the automotive bail outs a decade ago. It's not a matter of the strongest survive, it's a matter of there will be no survivors.

What I didn't like about the auto bailouts is the BS way the loans were "repaid" and that Obama was literally kicking back to the unions in exchange for favors. I'm really hoping Trump doesn't fall into either of those traps. If the country can loan the money, and also make a profit, people keep working, gigantic industries don't just evaporate over night, and there are no scummy political favors exchanged in the process, I'm mostly for it.

Then we need actual economic reform in this country. The root of the this problem is that no one really fixed anything since 2008. For 12 years the can has just been kicked down the road while the Fed just keeps printing money. The buck has really got to stop somewhere and it can't be with the taxpayers anymore. We honestly don't have the money to do it. The national debt now exceeds GDP and our unfunded obligations are multiple fold in excess of that. It has to stop or we will do this about once a decade until the entire system collapses.

 

[Alpo]

You are correct. 2008 did not fix the underlying philosophy of the welfare state. Particularly in regards to business and Wall Street.

And even if we the physical human aspect of a pandemic is over very quickly, the mental aspect will linger. Hotels, cruise lines, airlines, movie theatres.....people will continue to think about how potentially infectious they can be and what sort of residue they have to wade through to utilize those services. Do we support Red Roof Inns forever? Methinks not. Let them change the way they do business to deal with new concerns about health and safety.

 

[JettaKnight]

I'm not sure that a non-targeted distribution of this sort will improve the economic outlook or reduce the likelihood of a recession.

Perhaps I'm feeling more like Hayek than Keynes at this point, but if we are "regulated" capitalists, perhaps we should let the businesses fail. Do we really need cruise ships that are giant hotels on the water (and breeding grounds for novovirus, etc)? Do we need 12 major airline carriers? Do we need a new jumbo jet with seats that only fit someone shorter than Peter Dinklage? Shouldn't Wall Street raise the money necessary to keep these businesses going since it was Wall Street who reaped the benefits of business investment in the first place?

There's failing because they ran a business that should fail, and then there's failing because the government, by fiat, told everyone to stay away from that business with no more notice than a day.


Oh, and cruise ships are great - they house everyone I don't want at my vacation spot.

I say: we ought to be judicious in our assistance to businesses and we ought to identify/target citizens who are deeply and financially affected by a shutdown.

It wouldn't make sense to say: Everyone gets a 30 day holiday on mortgages. No one owes anything for March. But, I can see someone coming up with that as a cool thing to do.

This virus is a once-in-a-generation lesson in sacrifice. I would hope that we don't short-change the lesson by mortgaging our future once again.

Very true, it's just really hard for anyone competent (let alone the federal government) to pick out those citizens precisely.

 

[Sigblitz]

Aircraft carriers and jumbo jets are capital expenses. We should be propping up those on the brink of failure. Businesses are forced to shut their doors. Nobody is traveling, eating out, going out. People are unable to go to their jobs, or forced to take a leave of absence. The genesis is not a fiscal problem, so there is no free market correction. But if we don't prop up the American worker now, with their money the government takes from them through the temporary income tax, (and remember how this tax started and why it's just as relevant now,) the existing fabric will be broken. There will be no future revenue. Government programs will drain the economy. No one will be buying your food, you air conditioners, and the cycle will just spiral down from there. Everyone is just two steps away from nothing if businesses don't get a hail Mary.