argument against anti-gunners #2238

[HavokCycle]

i have been increasingly concerned about fire lately, and have been purchasing fire extinguishers for such an event.

so.. the thought i had is.. MANY people keep them around, in businesses, homes, vehicles, etc. why? to protect themselves, because you can lose your life and property in the ages it takes for emergency services to respond.

same with medical kits, you prepare to handle a situation.

fill in the rest here, where my brain is going with this thought....

why is one tool to defend yourself okay, and another not?

 

[Bunnykid68]

I am so stealing this.

+1

 

[hondatech2k2]

I am so stealing this.

+1

Same here lol

double +1

 

[CTS]

WTB: IWB fire extinguisher holster...must accomdate a full size extinguisher with minimal printing.

 

[LowerSW]

i have been increasingly concerned about fire lately, and have been purchasing fire extinguishers for such an event.

so.. the thought i had is.. MANY people keep them around, in businesses, homes, vehicles, etc. why? to protect themselves, because you can lose your life and property in the ages it takes for emergency services to respond.

same with medical kits, you prepare to handle a situation.

fill in the rest here, where my brain is going with this thought....

why is one tool to defend yourself okay, and another not?

Good point. You can every add that many insurance companies REQUIRE that business have all kind of devices to protect against lost.

 

[jedi]

i have been increasingly concerned about fire lately, and have been purchasing fire extinguishers for such an event.

so.. the thought i had is.. MANY people keep them around, in businesses, homes, vehicles, etc. why? to protect themselves, because you can lose your life and property in the ages it takes for emergency services to respond.

same with medical kits, you prepare to handle a situation.

fill in the rest here, where my brain is going with this thought....

why is one tool to defend yourself okay, and another not?

--from the mindset of an anti-gunner--
A fire typically is not something that I or someone else will set. Most house fires occur due to them just occuring (ie. bad wiring, lighting, etc.) as such it's part of life it's natural. There is no real way to prevent it ir just occurs.

A medical issue again is something I have no control of. I can't tell when my partner will have a heart attack or stroke or fall and break his bone. So I make sure I have 9-1-1 on speed dial and can ensure the doctors can get to him or my family on time. What can I do as I am not a doctor.

But a gun... A gun is evil in it of itself. A gun can kill. I might get mad and use that gun in anger. I can't be held responsible for my actions. I have never had to be held responsible for my actions, there is always someone/thing to blame. You can't possibily give me that responisbilbe. I won't accept it. No it's the gun's fault and we don't need those things. PERIOD.
---

You can't debate/talk/argue with someone who uses/bases their decision on feelings/emotions. It's pointless. Don't bother trying.

About the only way I know how to do this is to bring emotion into the debate yourself. Logic is NOT going to win here. You have to use their tools (emotions).

For example in CA there is a 10 day waiting period before you can pick up your gun.

I recall a story of Jane. Jane was in an abusive relationship. He husband would beat her weekly because she did not clean the dishes, or wash his cloths with ALL, etc. One day Jane had enough will power to go to the police and reported the abuse, she was taken to the hospital with a broken arm as well. Her husband, Tom, was removed from the house for a few days. Jane asked the police man what if he returns. The policeman told her he would not a restraining order was in place. If he did she should call 9-1-1.

That first night she did not sleep at all. The next day she went to Garner Mountain and after 60 mins of filling out the FED and state of CA guns forms, having the store call in for a background check she was able to buy a bolt action shotgun. The clerk told her she would have to come back in 10 days to pick it up due to state law.

So she went home and on the second night slept a bit more, knowing soon she would at least be able to protect herself since he could only use one arm. The other was in a cast.

On the 3rd night at around 2AM loud banging woke her up. It was Tom and he was drunk and yelling at her, "B*** I'm going to kill you! You little B*** you should never have called the cops!" He continued to bang on the door. She looked around the room and there was nothing she could use. She called 9-1-1 from her cell.

The operator told her to stay in the room, the police were on their way.
By now Tom had busted into the house and was hitting the bedroom door.
On the second bang the door gave in and Jane was screaming. Tom grabbed her by the neck and beat her ferociously. He chocked her, kicked her and finally hit her on the head with the nightstand lamp. Jane stopped screaming or moving by the time Tom put down the lamp.

It took the police only 5 minutes to arrive as there was a sub-station close by the house. It took Tom only 20 seconds to beat his wife to death.

10 days later Garner Moutain called Jane and left a voicemail on the answering machine.

"Ms Jane, you can come pick up your weapon today. The 10 day waiting period is over."
-----

 

[actaeon277]

I've used the fire extinguisher/1st Aid kit. I was told,"don't be stupid."

 

[jedi]

I've used the fire extinguisher/1st Aid kit. I was told,"don't be stupid."

Well in your case....
Again re-read my txt.

 

[Chkline]

I really like the fire extinguisher argument. I also use the health insurance. I really hope not to ever get sick, or have an emergency requiring a hospital visit, but if I do, I really want to be taken care of, and don't want to worry about having a huge bill, so I have health insurance. I think there are many ways to compare this, but it never gets through. So many people just are not logical thinkers...

 

[88GT]

You can't debate/talk/argue with someone who uses/bases their decision on feelings/emotions. It's pointless. Don't bother trying.

About the only way I know how to do this is to bring emotion into the debate yourself. Logic is NOT going to win here. You have to use their tools (emotions).

This. If they were interested in logic and reality, they wouldn't hold the position that a gun ban would stop the crime.

All the arguments have to be in a language they speak: emotion and "the ways things should be" (utopia ). To that end, it helps tremendously to be familiar with the Socratic method. I never argue with antis any more. I just question their premises. They believe the gun is evil and the person is influenced to act because of access to the gun. Blast that presumption and they have nothing but their own dislike/fear/hatred of firearms to justify their position. Sometimes it's a simple "What new law would have prevent this event?" Sometimes I get a lot more personal, "You know, it's up to you if you choose not to defend your children. But don't you think it's a touch too much for you to tell me I can't defend mine?"

Remember: always use their arguments against them.

EDIT: the fire extinguisher argument won't work very well because the first thing outta their mouths will be "But a fire extinguisher isn't made to KILL people."

 

[Lex Concord]

Most folks lack critical thinking skills, and can't handle the potential variations with multiple variables present in the problem.

And people think public schools have failed. Of to work little cogs...think as your betters direct.

 

[ghuns]

This. If they were interested in logic and reality...

Does anyone else find it mildly ironic that people on the far left like to point to science and all things "logical" when deriding religious persons for their adherence to things like faith, creationism, etc.? Or when they advocate for a theory of man-made climate change, they scream, "Look at the scientific data! It's irrefutable!". But when they are confronted with data, facts and logic regarding gun control they flip out and lose their

"But a fire extinguisher isn't made to KILL people."

Neither is a gun... or a knife, or a hammer, or a baseball bat, or an icepick, or a ballpoint pen, or a car, or a fire extinguisher, but each could be the instrument of any of our demise, in the right HANDS.

 

[jedi]

Does anyone else find it mildly ironic that people on the far left like to point to science and all things "logical" when deriding religious persons for their adherence to things like faith, creationism, etc.? Or when they advocate for a theory of man-made climate change, they scream, "Look at the scientific data! It's irrefutable!". But when they are confronted with data, facts and logic regarding gun control they flip out and lose their



Neither is a gun... or a knife, or a hammer, or a baseball bat, or an icepick, or a ballpoint pen, or a car, or a fire extinguisher, but each could be the instrument of any of our demise, in the right HANDS.

Do you want to argue about liberals and their use of logic or do you want to win?

 

[ghuns]

Do you want to argue about liberals and their use of logic or do you want to win?

I'm not arguing with anyone. Just asking if anyone else noticed the irony. Guess not

So how do we win? I am personally not capable of formulating an emotionally based argument for keeping my AR's or 30 round mags. I have had my "feelings" removed through a 20 year career working with engineers and grumpy eastern European tool makers. I fear there's no getting them back at this point.

There is no logical, factual argument to be made for bringing back the AWB. All data on the issue is very cut and dry. I have not heard one proponent of an AWB say that it will do a single thing to prevent mass shootings, or any other violent crime. They just say we have to do "something". How do you win a debate with someone who refuses to acknowledge that their position is baseless?

 

[HavokCycle]

how do we win? run a better smear campaign than them.
for many years, i thought taking the high road was better, as most intelligent folks will figure out whats really going on, and put it together.

after running a service-based business for many years, i can honestly say, thats not ****ing true whatsoever.

the sad truth is, the honest, upstanding, righteous man will be tested to put his own values on the line in such confrontations with the public. the only question remaining, is do you want to win with disgrace, or fail with value. i walk that line every day, sometimes I veer one way, sometimes the other.

to think that life is not a game, that requires strategy and tactics, is foolhardy.