Ben Shapiro V Candice Owen

[foszoe]

You seem unable to grasp that Candice is leveraging the same dodge/canard that you are, that her point was only about genocide in the abstract. It seems deliberate rather than rooted in any misunderstanding

I could even, begrudgingly, meet you at seems deliberate. But being certain it is a bridge too far being burnt for it goes too far without clarificataion.

 

[Tombs]

Ben was the first on the right to poo-poo Trump, should have been a red flag to anyone that Ben has some issues/may not align with populist beliefs.

Ever since I've seen him as a snake, and he seems content to continue giving off that vibe.

 

[BugI02]

I could even, begrudgingly, meet you at seems deliberate. But being certain it is a bridge too far being burnt for it goes too far without clarificataion.

Do you think she will admit what she is up too? I seriously doubt it

Unless she is a lot stupider than I thought, there is no way she would not know how what she said would be taken - which implies that the reaction she got is the one she wanted

 

[jamil]

I think, in the context of current world events, for her to go with 'no country has the right to commit genocide' can only be seen as a dig at Israel which does not deserve the slander through either word or deed

I think Shapiro is right to be ****ed and has correctly discerned that she wants to be critical of Israel but in such a way as to have plausible deniability. Current events do not bring to mind the Tutsis and Hutus or the Turks and Armenians or Stalin and the Ukrainians or the Germans and the Jews when genocide is mentioned but the ridiculous claim that Israel is committing genocide on the Palestinians. She knew exactly what she was doing and I hope she burns for it. A bridge too far

I suspect Own is a closet antisemite, given her odd suport of Kanye West after his antisemitic rants. Now if she only have the viewpoint that the US has enough problems at home, and that support for Israel should not be unlimited. I’m fine with that viewpoint. I just think it would be difficult for her to make the case all things considered, that it’s only that. It does not look to me like Israel is engaging in genocide in any objective way.

 

[jamil]

I could even, begrudgingly, meet you at seems deliberate. But being certain it is a bridge too far being burnt for it goes too far without clarificataion.

She has tried clarifying. I think the whole Kanye thing is an important part of the context which tends not to justify the most charitable interpretation.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

 

[jamil]

It’s more of the same. If we could remove all bias and find the objective center of balance between pro Israel and pro Palestine discourse, it would favor Israel. Especially in the light of Oct 7.

I think Owens is deluded (bias is a form of delusion) on the anti-Israel side. Shapiro is deluded on the pro-Israel side. So in terms of distance from the objective center, Shapiro is closer than Owens.

But, Shapiro is Jewish. I expect him to be biased towards Israel. If Owens only said she thinks the US should mostly stay out of it, yeah. I agree with that much. Sell them weapons. Whatever they need. But. They need to pay for it. It’s like Tesla. If Israel can’t make it financially on their own, they’re basically welfare recipients. I don’t agree with unquestionable support for Israel.

But, she seems to be trying to say “**** Israel”, because it’s Israel, without saying it. It shouldn’t have anything to do with race or culture, and like I said, if we could remove all the cultural biases, justice would favor Israel, objectively.

 

[jamil]

Now here’s an example of the worst Israel apologist I’ve ever seen. It’s painfully wokish. He starts off trying to explain what antisemitism is, but does so borrowing from the woke ideas about what racism is. Owens points that out and he defends it! Yeah. Antisemitism is whatever jewish people feel it is. The way he defines it, if I don't think we should be sending Israel billions of dollars, he'd get to call me antisemitic!



Like I said, I think Owens is further from the center of what looks like reality to me than Shapiro. I just wish she'd have this kind of debate with Shapiro, because, despite his biases, I would hope he'd be more intellectually honest than this Rabi.

At one point (~22:00) they discuss a point in his article where he said that she said Hitler was okay. I remember the point she had made about Nationalism a number of times, which I actually agree with. Her point is that people have overreacted to the word Nationalism because they associate it with Hitler, and so it has gotten a negative connotation.

She had gone on to say that Hitler really was not a nationalist because he invaded other countries. That if he'd have just concentrated on making Germany better, instead of trying to make the whole world Germany, he'd have been okay. So what made that clip of her saying that go viral is that she did not clarified that she does not qualify "he'd have been okay..." with also not killing Jews. But still, someone hearing the full statement by Owens and still claiming she said "Hitler was okay," they'd have to have a Bugion "you're saying" complex to make that statement into her saying "Hitler was okay."

I wish that this Rabbi would have been more intellectually honest, because he could have teased what I want to know about Owens. Is she a crazy anti-semite? Probably not, but that's the most confidence I can muster. Some of her statements about Jews cast doubts. Not the nationalist thing they discussed though. He should have said, ya, okay I was wrong about that, but then pressed her about what Hitler should have done to be a good German nationalist, especially regarding Jews. That might give one more confidence that she's not the antisemitic bigot he claims she is. As it was, he made emotional' arguments, borrowing from wokeness. I was pulling for him to pin her down once and for all. He turned out to be an idiot.

 

[jamil]

I don't think Israel is committing genocide, though I think many Israelis and conservative Jews seem to be quite okay with the idea of zero philistinism in the world. And I'd say that after the atrocities of 10/7, that animosity is earned. But, if Israel's goals were genocide, I think it would be over and Israelis would be hauling off the corpses and clearing land for settlements in Palestine by now.

Okay. So that brings me to the kerfuffle between DW and Owens. I've kinda changed my mind on things. It's affecting the Right especially in the fight against ClownWorld™. It needs to stop. There's probably no middle ground between thinking that Israel is committing genocide and thinking that having that opinion is antisemitic. I watched her interview with Rabbi Barclay, and I didn't even want to take Owens side because I kinda still think she's a grifter. Or at least started out to be a grifter.

In the interview Barclay basically justified his claim that Owens is antisemitic using the same logic woke people use for claiming all white people are inherently racist. It's obvious that the Rabbi is ideologically possessed. Using his definitions of antisemitism anyone who says anything against Israel is antisemitic. As if he allows for no circumstances in which he could be full of ****.

And that seems to be the position Ben Shapiro has adopted, and has taken the Daily Wire with him. It makes him and the Daily Wire feckless to speak in favor of free speech. We should be able to understand nuance, and thus allow Shapiro his Israel-first footing. It's his right to speak freely on that. It makes him look like a hypocrite though when he shits on someone voicing an opposite opinion.

Is Owens antisemitic? Well, first, I kinda think if antisemitism is really just racism against Jews, we don't need to make a special word for that. We have one. Just call it racism. Second, racism is bad, but is it the worst thing a person can be? We're that kinda by default because of instinctive behavior. Othering. It's bad to use things like skin color to discriminate against people. We should override that behavior. But I'd argue that murder is worse, rape is worse, theft is worse. If any of those are done because of racism, of course that's worse.

Point is, I'd like for people to stop losing their **** and quarreling because someone doesn't have the orthodox position on Israel. Daily Wire was stronger against ClownWorld™ when Owens and Shapiro were fighting it together, than they are now fighting amongst themselves over Isreael. It just makes me think Shapiro is Israel-first and maybe America-second. I'm sure if he read this he'd call me antisemitic using the same reasoning woke people use to call conservatives fascists.

 

[Mgderf]

I can't believe this is still a story...

 

[jamil]

Why? They both keep contributing to the story? They oughtta just STFU and get on with dewoking America. But no. Israel-first Shapiro, and quasiantisemitic Owens have to make their stupid spat public. Facts only don't care about your feelings when it doesn't involve Israel apparently.

 

[rhamersley]

The Babylon Bee Officially Invites Ben Shapiro And Candace Owens To Come Settle Things Like Adults By Sumo Wrestling

U.S. — The Babylon Bee has officially extended an invitation to Ben Shapiro and Candace Owens to come gear up in massive sumo suits so they can settle their differences like mature adults.

babylonbee.com