C&R Lic question

[fullmetaljesus]

I am considering getting my C&R but I have a few questions.

Lets pretend, I already have my C&R and my friend comes across this great SKS on a website that was made in lets say 1943. Which would mean I could have this gun shipped to my door. So my friend gives me the money for the gun, I order it and have it shipped to my door, when it comes in I then give the gun to my friend to paid for it. Am I still legal? granted he is a "proper person" for gun ownership etc. It seems to me, that as long as its not with the intent on making a business out of it, I should be fine.

im basing these assumptions off of the FAQ section of the atf site.

Q: Does a license as a collector of curio or relic firearms authorize the collector to engage in the business of dealing in curios or relics?
No. A collector’s license only enables the collector to transport, ship, receive, and acquire curios and relics in interstate or foreign commerce, and to make disposition of curios and relics in interstate or foreign commerce, to any other licensee, for the period stated on the license. A collector’s license does not authorize the collector to engage in a business required to be licensed under the Act. Therefore, if the acquisitions and dispositions of curios and relics by a collector brings the collector within the definition of a manufacturer, importer, or dealer, he shall qualify as such. A dealer’s license must be obtained to engage in the business of dealing in any firearms, including curios or relics.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a) and 923(a)(1), 27 CFR 478.41(c)(d)]

Q: What does “engaged in the business” mean?
The term “engaged in the business,” as applicable to a firearms dealer, is defined as a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms

 

[OneBadV8]

[STRIKE]Your friend can pay for the gun himself and just have it shipped to you.[/STRIKE] And yes, you can't charge anyone to receive anything.

 

[fullmetaljesus]

thats what we thought, if it cost 120 to get it to my door, he pays 120 and we are all legal, but if I tell him he has to pay me 150 then i have violated a few different laws.

 

[JettaKnight]

Your friend can pay for the gun himself and just have it shipped to you. And yes, you can't charge anyone to receive anything.

NO - This is wrong!!!

As a C&R licensee you are not a dealer. You are not able to transfer firearms. First, the seller (Say J&G Sales) won't ship a firearm to a FFL03 licensee if someone else buys it. If FMJ buys a firearm, J&G will only ship to the address on the FFL03 they receive (and check as valid). If Joe Blow buys a firearm then it must ship to a FFL01 only.

An FFL03 doesn't give you the right to help friends buy guns. If you want to be everyone's friend then get a pickup, not a C&R license.

 

[fullmetaljesus]

ok, good points, what about, the fact that i can order the gun, and have it shipped to my house. and the fact that indiana allows FTF gun selling with out an FFL. Im not selling the gun for a profit nor did I intend to.

perhaps a kind ingo lawyer will take 2 seconds to shine some light on this?

 

[JettaKnight]

ok, good points, what about, the fact that i can order the gun, and have it shipped to my house. and the fact that Indiana allows FTF gun selling with out an FFL. I'm not selling the gun for a profit nor did I intend to.

perhaps a kind ingo lawyer will take 2 seconds to shine some light on this?

The C&R license (FFL03) proves to seller that you are a legal buyer and may engage in interstate commerce. For you to receive a firearm that you do not intend to add to your collection is a violation of the C&R terms. You would be fulfilling the transfer roll of a FFL01 dealer. Since you don't and can't handle F4473, you can't verify that the buyer is a legal buyer and you would be considered a straw man buyer.

How do you think the BATFE is going to look upon your log book that has an entry for a SKS that you sold one day after you bought it?

A lot of the C&R rules go to motive. In your story, at no point did you, the licensee, ever intend to own the gun. An FFL03 should never be used to facilitate third party sales; that's the providence of an FFL01.

As far as Indiana and FTF sales, that gets trumped by federal FFL laws. Don't forget, all sales must be logged. Selling or buying that '43 SKS to or from an INGO'er? Better get his name, address and DL# for your log book.

 

[JettaKnight]

Also, check out the C&R section at the Surplus Rifle Forum. There's a lot of guys there that buy and sell at lot more than me.

http://surplusrifleforum.com/viewforum.php?f=6C&R License Related Information

 

[canav844]

It's $30, get your friend to fill out the paperwork as well, then buy accessories for his SKS at a vendor that gives C&R discounts, it'll pay for itself.

IANAL but in doing the research for C&R, in the real world sense of things; the ATF does check up on records, and it needs to look like your collecting. If they move out of your collection too quickly, if too many move out of your collection, if a high percentage move out of your collection; you may very well find yourself in a tough spot during an ATF interview, where penalties start at not renewing your C&R and rapidly escalate to time in the Federal prison system. That's not to say if you search around you won't find people that sold a portion of the collection to have the extra cash at home, or people that sold off their entire collection and started over, or sold some of the guns that were just sitting in the back of the safe and it wasn't an issue for any of those people.

Also as you described, you may want to take some time to review this; as buying a gun for your friend to circumvent paperwork, at its most basic level does sound very troublesome...

Keep in mind that a straw purchase is a purchase in which the actual purchaser uses someone else — a.k.a. the “straw person” — to purchase the firearm and complete the paperwork.
...
However, a straw purchase occurs even when the actual purchaser is not a prohibited person.

ATF Online - Training - Firearms - Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide Learning Theater - Straw Purchase Attempt Transcript
ATF Online - Training - Firearms - Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide Learning Theater

Also as far as engaged in business and buy/sell/trade as hobby within Indiana law, there is the ATF C&R FAQ with links to the applicable code, that I'd suggest reading before sending off the C&R paperwork.

Q: Does a license as a collector of curio or relic firearms authorize the collector to engage in the business of dealing in curios or relics? No. A collector’s license only enables the collector to transport, ship, receive, and acquire curios and relics in interstate or foreign commerce, and to make disposition of curios and relics in interstate or foreign commerce, to any other licensee, for the period stated on the license. A collector’s license does not authorize the collector to engage in a business required to be licensed under the Act. Therefore, if the acquisitions and dispositions of curios and relics by a collector brings the collector within the definition of a manufacturer, importer, or dealer, he shall qualify as such. A dealer’s license must be obtained to engage in the business of dealing in any firearms, including curios or relics.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a) and 923(a)(1), 27 CFR 478.41(c)(d)]
Q: What does “engaged in the business” mean? The term “engaged in the business,” as applicable to a firearms dealer, is defined as a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.
[27 CFR 478.11]

ATF Online - Firearms - Frequently Asked Questions - Curios & Relics

 

[JettaKnight]

I've posted this before on INGO, but it's worth repeating. There's nothing wrong with selling. There's nothing wrong with selling for a profit. What matters is why you sold and how. The 'how' relates to your log book and the 'why' relates to the purpose of the FFL03. I bought a a Polish P64 handgun. two weeks later I sold for slightly more than I paid. I sold it because I didn't like it and used the fund that same day to buy a Polish M44 for my collection. I sold it for market price or even slightly lower, but that still more than I paid. I got the buyer's details and into my log book it went. All was on the up and up and there's no reason for any BAFTE inspector to think anything different. At no point was my motive improper - I bought because I genuinely wanted it for myself and I sold it because I genuinely wanted to buy something else.

 

[tv1217]

You could buy it and sell it after a week "because you didn't like it"

 

[CarmelHP]

You could buy it and sell it after a week "because you didn't like it"

He sold it "to enhance his collection." JettaKnight has been pretty much on target on this.

IAALBNYL

 

[tv1217]

He sold it because "He ain't no gaw dang commie"

 

[2cool9031]

You could buy it and sell it after a week "because you didn't like it"

Yep...thats what I was going to say.

 

[doublesharp]

I'm coming up on my 3rd renewal. Purely anecdotal but I have never been checked. I am asked when I renew how many c&r guns I bought in the last 3 years and how many I disposed of. A typical answer is buy 10 dispose of 2 over 3 years.

I agree with the advice that your friend should get a c&r as well. Cost is $30 for 3 years. I look at it as a bargain if I use it once. Where a c&r has real value is out of state gun shows. A c&r lets you take possession on the spot of eligible firearms. About all I collect is old revolvers and other guns made prior to 1962.