CAR System / Jeff Johnsgaard / Natural Tactical

[Indy_Guy_77]

Just curious if any fellow INGOers have ever heard of any of the above?

I've an opportunity to take a class by Mr. Johnsgaard about the CAR System (Center Axis Relock - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) developed by Paul Castle.

Until very recently, I've been wholly ignorant about the CAR System... Still seems rather foreign to me.

Opinions? Thoughts?

Thanks!

-J-

 

[esrice]

Never heard of the CAR system or Mr. Johnsgaard.

I bet Paul Gomez has though. . . .

ETA: I take that back. I just checked out his website and remember seeing his video before.

http://www.sabretactical.com/html/center_axis_relock__car_.html

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

It seems it's panned by people as being a "parlor trick"...

But Johnsgaard's resume is decent (I mean, for a Canadian and all...LOL)

And the invitation has come from a Federal Air Marshall....and the training has been secured by one of his higher-ups for THEM to use. And, if anything, the FAMS are all absolutely fantastic shooters.

-J-

 

[esrice]

It seems it's panned by people as being a "parlor trick"...

So are most TTPs that aren't currently "mainstream".

And the invitation has come from a Federal Air Marshall....and the training has been secured by one of his higher-ups for THEM to use.

If you have the opportunity and the ability to take it, do it. Go in with an open mind and try it. If it works for you, great. If it doesn't, at least you've been exposed to something new and can now speak about it from a position of experience.

From my perspective (behind a keyboard) Mr. Johnsgaard seems to be a very competent and effective shooter using that technique. I would personally be curious if those techniques are capable of being integrated across various weapons platforms.

Let us know how it goes!

 

[Hemingway]

And, if anything, the FAMS are all absolutely fantastic shooters.

-J-

This used to be more true years ago than now but yes, they still have very high standards (particularly for Fed LEO's) and are probably the best at weapons manipulation (since their drills incorporate them more than most other agencies). Prior to 9/11, every one of them was an absolutely incredible shot, to a man. The large hiring post 9/11 knocked down the average a bit (you can only get so many world-class shooters), but as you say, they are still very good.



As far as the CAR training, I corresponded with Paul Castle about 9 years ago or so now about coming to do a class with that system but it never panned out. Paul seemed to be a decent enough guy in all my dealings with him but ultimately we never did the class. I was willing to give the system a shot but we couldn't get the schedules to match up and the necessary students. Then, it just sort of fell by the wayside. So, not much to add to your original question...

 

[rphutchi]

Experimented shooting w/ this method and found I liked it enough to continue practicing that way. It is the only way I am able to shoot w/ both eyes open and maintain good target acquisition. Would be interested in how it all shakes out for you.

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

Thanks for the extra info / opinions, folks.

And Hemingway, you're right. While I only know one FAM, he has made reference to a few "big guys" he works with. I asked how they were able to complete the physical training / what not... He said "Man, in the days shortly after 9/11, they were just looking for shooters." So, there you have it. And they don't shoot weenie 9mm, either. It takes a lot of rounds to be as proficient and as fast with a .357Sig as most can only hope to be with the 9mm.

Anyhow: I'm still researching. I posted a very similar thread over on GlockTalk hoping to get other opinions from "those in the industry".

Verdict still out... But considering I've seen other 3-day courses running $500+... This one at $250 seems a downright bargain.

If I do take the course....just another arrow in the quiver, I suppose.

-J-

 

[esrice]

Verdict still out... But considering I've seen other 3-day courses running $500+... This one at $250 seems a downright bargain.

Three days for $250? Take it.

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

Three days for $250? Take it.

AND free lodging. And only the gas to get me half way...

 

[esrice]

AND free lodging. And only the gas to get me half way...

Yeah sounds like a no-brainer. Do eet.

 

[donnie1581]

If you have the chance I'd take it. There's really no reason not to do it is there?

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

If you have the chance I'd take it. There's really no reason not to do it is there?

Well, aside from perhaps from the chance of this being rather useless information...potentially dangerous (read: more dangerous than gun play is in general) training from a fly-by-night operation....

A Paul Castle video that I watched (on the link that esrice provided above)...that this shooting position was kind of born out of a self-defense-from-a-head-strike type of position....and adding a handgun to it.

-J-

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

If anyone else reads this:

Just a few minutes ago, I spoke, by telephone, with a rather well-respected member of the firearms training community here in the US. He was able to provide me with a little bit of history behind the development of CAR...as well as explain a little bit of the rather niche application of it.

His general opinion was much that of some of the above: If after the class, you decide that it's all bunk....it's still trigger time; and there's a chance that a drill or two can be applicable to other methods/situations.

-J-

 

[rhino]

I don't know much about the instructor or program in this topic, so I don't have an opinion on whether or not it's worth your time and money, but I have to ask . . . why worry over an unknown when there are multiple known quantities here in Indiana, like:

Fortress Defense w/ Glock21
Suarez Intl. w/ Cedartop
Louis Awerbuck
DTI/John Farnam
Gunsite w/ Ken Campbell
etc etc etc

I could understand if you'd exhausted those opportunities and wanted to try something different, but . . .

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

I don't know much about the instructor or program in this topic, so I don't have an opinion on whether or not it's worth your time and money, but I have to ask . . . why worry over an unknown when there are multiple known quantities here in Indiana, like:

Fortress Defense w/ Glock21
Suarez Intl. w/ Cedartop
Louis Awerbuck
DTI/John Farnam
Gunsite w/ Ken Campbell
etc etc etc

I could understand if you'd exhausted those opportunities and wanted to try something different, but . . .

Valid questions.

Main reasoning for considering: 3-day training for $250 + get to spend the weekend with family + might actually get to learn something + learn a technique that'll allow me to move unencumbered throughout passenger trains & aircraft as I go about the business of neutralizing terroristic threats to our American Liberty & Way of Life.

-J-

 

[dlbrown75]

I do like the idea of the dynamic stance. In a combat situation I want to give my opponent the smallest possible target. That is not showing him my chest, with my feet spread on o straight line.

 

[rhino]

Valid questions.

Main reasoning for considering: 3-day training for $250 + get to spend the weekend with family + might actually get to learn something + learn a technique that'll allow me to move unencumbered throughout passenger trains & aircraft as I go about the business of neutralizing terroristic threats to our American Liberty & Way of Life.

-J-

That's reasonable.

It used to be that tuition was the big ticket for training. Now even though those prices are higher, the cost ammunition, travel, and lodging are what make or break it for many people.

 

[cedartop]

Indy Guy, I am familiar with the CAR system in passing. We have been teaching parts of it for some time without knowing it. I am sure some of the other schools teach some aspects of it as well, but like us don't see it as the CAR system, but some techniques that are applicable in certain situations. It is used to some extent in our Close Range Gunfighting, and even more in Point Shooting Progressions. Again though I would say, we don't call it CAR it is just one of those things that you come across when working with guns and moving a lot. It is a way of not fighting your self and getting tied up.

While I have nothing against "CAR", I don't see it as a total system. That would be like us taking the pekiti takeoff (which we use to initiate dynamic movement), and making a whole system around it. Depending on your current level of training, I would encourage you to seek out a more rounded and complete system. It could be our CRG or one of the others rhino mentions. Of course, if for the other reasons you mention, you want to go to the class, I am sure you will learn something valuable.

 

[mercop]

Sadly my brother Paul Castle passed away last year after loosing his battle with cancer. I became a Master CAR Instructor in 2001. It is my go to for out of the holster work, by that I mean that I believe in lots of one hand work out of the holster for dealing with spontaneous attacks, for things like shooting from vehicles and building clearing I use CAR. It is a fighting platform and not just a shooting platform.

CAR is based on body mechanics and physiology, and because of that allows a smaller person to retain their pistol against a much larger person.

If anyone has specific question about CAR please post them and I will do my best to answer them. - George