Concealed carry training ???

[BehindBlueI's]

Yes: in absolute terms of ascribing firearms as "dangerous", they are not. Some 15K accidental firearm injuries in a total of 30MM accidental injuries among a population of 300MM (of whom 100MM are firearm owners), is insignificant.

If you have numbers to differentiate between accidents involving the trained and the untrained, please present them, and show that there is statistical significance in the difference in the rate of accidents involving those two cohorts. Until then, what *you* are presenting is some hybrid of a hunch and a philosophy, and not "evidence".

I don't say that to be snarky. The burden of proof lies with those making the claim that failing to get firearms training is "dangerous". I'm presenting numbers that merely demonstrate the landscape/context of any evidence you might find: firearms *overall* are not "dangerous", so it will be extremely difficult to justify a subset of the group subject to accidental firearm injury as being more "dangerous".

Right. You made the claim, I challenged you to present the evidence you claimed, now it's my burden.

Like I said, I'm not really interested in your theory, nor the idea that "only 15k per year" is some proof that guns aren't dangerous. I own a ladder. My neighbor owns a ladder. You've obviously got enough information to determine our respective level of risk now by looking at the total number of ladder incidents per year. The fact you have no information on the total number of hours actually using the ladder, manner of using the ladder, height of the ladder, occupational risks such as exposure to electrical lines, etc. should be no problem. CDC data will cover it.

 

[chipbennett]

Right. You made the claim, I challenged you to present the evidence you claimed, now it's my burden.

Like I said, I'm not really interested in your theory, nor the idea that "only 15k per year" is some proof that guns aren't dangerous. I own a ladder. My neighbor owns a ladder. You've obviously got enough information to determine our respective level of risk now by looking at the total number of ladder incidents per year. The fact you have no information on the total number of hours actually using the ladder, manner of using the ladder, height of the ladder, occupational risks such as exposure to electrical lines, etc. should be no problem. CDC data will cover it.

Actually, *I* didn't make the claim; the OP did:

...I'm sure some will disagree but I believe the lack of training that most that carry regularly have had is nothing short of dangerous...

That claim remains as-of-yet unsupported. If you wish to provide evidence or data to support it, please do.

 

[NHT3]

I don't spend as much time at Parabellum as I once did but my "data" comes from having guns pointed at me (loaded and unloaded) and unloading firearms that I was assured had already been cleared. I don't know what you call having a loaded gun pointed at you but I consider it dangerous. To cite one more example of many, owning a firearm and not having ANY idea how to clear a malfunction is another situation that I consider dangerous. My slice of experience is, granted very small, and not what anyone would call a comprehensive study. Unless what I've seen and experienced is not at all representative of the population there are some damn dangerous people that handle firearms in public regularly. I suppose it comes down to what one's definition of dangerous might be but IMHO in my limited vision it's a dangerous situation.






A couple of examples of many.. Maybe it's just me but I believe anyone with a firearm needs training, but to quote Uncle Ted, I'm weird like that.
Do I want the State in charge of the requirements to carry a firearm, NO. The new regulations on calibers for deer hunting or what the State came up with regarding a class for the military recruiters that wanted to defend themselves while at work are glaring examples of how little those making the rules know about what they are doing. I don't have an answer because I don't make the rules but to ignore what I've seen and not speak up would be nothing short of irrational and downright foolish.

[FONT=&amp]NRA Life Member[/FONT][FONT=&amp]-- [/FONT][FONT=&amp]GSSF member[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
[/FONT]Certified Glock armorer- CertifiedM&P armorer[FONT=&amp]
[/FONT]NRA Basic pistol instructor[FONT=&amp] /[/FONT][FONT=&amp] RSO


[/FONT]

 

[chipbennett]

I don't spend as much time at Parabellum as I once did but my "data" comes from having guns pointed at me (loaded and unloaded) and unloading firearms that I was assured had already been cleared. I don't know what you call having a loaded gun pointed at you but I consider it dangerous. To cite one more example of many, owning a firearm and not having ANY idea how to clear a malfunction is another situation that I consider dangerous. My slice of experience is, granted very small, and not what anyone would call a comprehensive study. Unless what I've seen and experienced is not at all representative of the population there are some damn dangerous people that handle firearms in public regularly. I suppose it comes down to what one's definition of dangerous might be but IMHO in my limited vision it's a dangerous situation. [FONT=&amp]
[/FONT]

One of the best lines that I've heard on INGO: the plural of "anecdote" is not "data". That said: I think I would agree that anyone not at least minimally trained (by someone else, or self-trained) in the Four Rules of firearm handling (something that takes all of five minutes) can lead to potentially dangerous situations.

But Four Rules training is much different from the type of training that I thought you were alluding to in the OP (i.e. the type of training that Coach provides at Parabellum).

 

[ATM]

One of the best lines that I've heard on INGO: the plural of "anecdote" is not "data". That said: I think I would agree that anyone not at least minimally trained (by someone else, or self-trained) in the Four Rules of firearm handling (something that takes all of five minutes) can lead to potentially dangerous situations.

But Four Rules training is much different from the type of training that I thought you were alluding to in the OP (i.e. the type of training that Coach provides at Parabellum).

If I had five minutes, I could give them the THREE Rules of safe gun handling and explain the 2nd Amendment.

 

[rhino]

If I had five minutes, I could give them the THREE Rules of safe gun handling and explain the 2nd Amendment.

Don't forget the 5 hours and 33 minutes necessary for the ensuing argument over 3 vs 4 rules.

 

[chipbennett]

If I had five minutes, I could give them the THREE Rules of safe gun handling and explain the 2nd Amendment.

REPORTED

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Whether 25% or 1%, I have a solution to expand the number:

Make firearms training (tuition, travel, ammunition, lodging, etc.) an above the line income tax deduction.

This is a win-win-win: it encourages safety training without force, it encourages the growth of the gun industry, and it encourages the permanent growth of the gun culture by codifying it in the tax code.

 

[VERT]

Whether 25% or 1%, I have a solution to expand the number:

Make firearms training (tuition, travel, ammunition, lodging, etc.) an above the line income tax deduction.

This is a win-win-win: it encourages safety training without force, it encourages the growth of the gun industry, and it encourages the permanent growth of the gun culture by codifying it in the tax code.

Lodging and ammunition included? WooHo. Looks like I get to stay at the Holiday Inn instead of the Motel 6.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Lodging and ammunition included? WooHo.

Goshdarn right it would be!

 

[rhino]

I approve of that idea.

And it should be retroactive for amended tax returns.

 

[VERT]

I approve of that idea.

And it should be retroactive for amended tax returns.

Too much trouble for past returns. But I could think of a few ways to reduce my taxable income in the upcoming years.

 

[ATM]

Whether 25% or 1%, I have a solution to expand the number:

Make firearms training (tuition, travel, ammunition, lodging, etc.) an above the line income tax deduction.

This is a win-win-win: it encourages safety training without force, it encourages the growth of the gun industry, and it encourages the permanent growth of the gun culture by codifying it in the tax code.

Taxation is theft.

 

[KellyinAvon]

A tax credit just like (wait for it***) education expense?

 

[Shay]

Taxation is theft.

You read my mind....

 

[ATM]

You read my mind....

Well sure, I've been to Pleasantville. It's a magically liberating place.

(...and I'm overdue for a return visit.)

 

[hog slayer]

Heck! I've offered to pay for the class if they pay for ammo and bring a gun. No joy. They're always all smiles until it
gets down to the wire.

Training on the east coast was much more costly in time, money and round count based on what I've seen Posted here.

 

[fjw2]

There is much talk about instructors/classes that are less than reputable. I am the type of person that will research an important decision until I am convinced that it will be as correct a decision that I can possibly make. I feel like I am ready to make the next step in my firearms related knowledge. Sources mentioned and available on INGO, and most recently on this thread, have made me decide that this spring/summer will be my target for the the next step. Planning(time off of work and funds) will start now though. Thanks for the inspiration guys.

 

[NHT3]

Not sure where you are located but if you plan on training with Coach and I you will enjoy it. I've yet to hear anyone say they didn't feel they got their moneys worth after any of the classes. As BBIs said, "you don't know what you don't know" and that's what you usually come away with, that you are not nearly as prepared as you convinced yourself you were.

[FONT=&amp]NRA Life Member[/FONT][FONT=&amp]-- [/FONT][FONT=&amp]GSSF member[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]Certified Glock armorer- Certified M&P armorer[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]NRA Basic pistol instructor[FONT=&amp] /[/FONT][FONT=&amp] RSO[/FONT]

 

[chipbennett]

Not sure where you are located but if you plan on training with Coach and I you will enjoy it. I've yet to hear anyone say they didn't feel they got their moneys worth after any of the classes. As BBIs said, "you don't know what you don't know" and that's what you usually come away with, that you are not nearly as prepared as you convinced yourself you were.

[FONT=&amp]NRA Life Member[/FONT][FONT=&amp]-- [/FONT][FONT=&amp]GSSF member[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
[/FONT]Certified Glock armorer- CertifiedM&P armorer[FONT=&amp]
[/FONT]NRA Basic pistol instructor[FONT=&amp] /[/FONT][FONT=&amp] RSO[/FONT]

I second what he said, at least with respect to Coach's classes (as his are the only ones I've participated in).