Do you guys know about 45 Raptor yet? .308+.460 S&W 1.8" case intended for AR 10

[redpitbull44]

Let me preamble this by saying I am in no way shape or form affiliated with these companies, nor have I ever at any time had contact with this company. I am just a guy who REALLY wants what they have to offer, and I wanted to share it with you folks.

I searched. Didn't find any threads here regarding this fairly new and incredibly exciting cartridge. I'm going to post links and pics further down, but here are the basics:

45 Raptor is essentially a .460 Smith & Wesson Magnum with a .308 rim, designed to be used in the AR 10.
That is to say, it uses .460 S&W reloading data (powder/primers/.452" bullets) .460 S&W reloading dies, and .308 Winchester shell holder. That's it. You set your press up with .308 shell holder and .460 S&W dies and get to work as if you were doing .460 S&W. Starline brass is readily available, (100,000+pieces available) as are AR10 barrels. You can even use.458" bullets swaged to .452" if you wanna go heavier than .452" offerings. Did I mention .45 Raptor is legal for deer here in Indiana, because the case length is 1.8" and it's larger than .357" diameter (just like the .460 S&W Mag). To be clear, the only alteration to your AR10 would be a .45 Raptor Barrel. DRD Tactical actually makes AR 10s with quick change barrels. DRD has .308 and 6.5 Creedmoor available now, and said in this video that .45 Raptor would be available. Also for $200, you can have your S&W 460 revolvers modified to work with moon clips, allowing you to shoot everything based on a .45 ACP case (which is darn near identical base to the .308. Matter of fact, some HOT .45 pistol loads use cut down.308 cases).
http://www.45raptor.com/45RAPTOR/resources/


Here is a link to their reloading information page:
45 RAPTOR

As well as a link for their brass and such:
HOME OF THE 45 RAPTOR

To put this in perspective, .460 S&W is fired tested from 8 3/8" barrels. At that barrel length, it is formidable to say the least. However, we're talking about shooting this out of a 16" barrel. Some of you .460 guys KNOW this, but essentially now we're talking KE in the .45-70 to .458 Win Mag range. From a semi-auto rifle with a 20 rd mag. It can kill anything in North America. Can we say ultimate guide gun?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/45_Raptor
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45-70
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.458_Winchester_Magnum

Here is their ballistic/ performance data web page, which is really the meat and potatoes of it all for reference to performance:
45 RAPTOR

And a link from that page with a pretty nice velocity/ KE/ trajectory/ wind drift table out to 200yd
http://www.45raptor.com/45RAPTOR/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/45RaptorChart.pdf

Here is the forum they reference if you have any specific inquiries
http://www.beyond556.com/bboard/forum/ar-10-lr308-gii-sr25-cartridges/big-bore

[video=youtube;ZvIa_nh7OYo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvIa_nh7OYo[/video]

 

[redpitbull44]

TK CUSTOM, located in East / Central Illinois, has announced that they will modify SMITH & WESSON X-FRAME 460 S&W MAGNUM revolvers to shoot 45 RAPTOR ammunition. You only need to send them the cylinder and they will modify it and provide 10 moon clips for $200 including shipping back to you. Turnaround time would be 2 weeks or less.
In speaking the TK Custom, the modified 460 SW X-Fram will shoot any 45 ACP based rimless cartridge including the 45 ACP, 45 WIN MAG, 45 SUPER, 460 ROWLAND, 45 DETONICS and 45 RAPTOR. In addition, it will still retain the ability to shoot rimmed cartridges like the 45 Long COLT, 454 Casull and 460 SMITH & WESSON MAGNUM.
In addition to having a semi-auto hunting rifle in 45 RAPTOR, now you can have a sidearm that not only shoots identical ammunition, but is expanded in capability to shoot a total of nine (9) different cartridges.

 

[redpitbull44]

Using a 16.0 inch barrel, the following performance has been obtained keeping within the designed pressure specifications of the cartridge and the rifle.

• 160-Grain Barnes TAC-XP = 2950-3000 FPS
• 180-Grain Nosler JHP = 2750-2800 FPS
• 185-Grain Barnes TAC-XP = 2750-2800 FPS
• 200-Grain Speer Gold Dot = 2700-2750 FPS
• 200-Grain Hornady FTX = 2700-2750 FPS
• 230-Grain Gold Dot = 2550-2650 FPS
• 230-Grain Sierra FMJ = 2550-2650 FPS
• 240-Grain Hornady XTP MAG = 2550-2650 FPS
• 250-Grain Hornady FTX = 2450-2550 FPS
• 250-Grain Speer Deep Curl HP = 2450-2550 FPS
• 260-Grain Speer JHP = 2450-2550 FPS
• 300-Grain Hornady XTP MAG = 2150-2300 FPS
• 300-Grain Speer Deep Curl HP = 2150-2300 FPS
• 300-Grain Speer JHP = 2150-2300 FPS
• 325-Grain Barnes Buster = 2000-2150 FPS

Note – Use of any handgun bullet requires care in load development unless the bullet is specifically listed by the manufacturer for use with the 460 SMITH & WESSON MAGNUM. Careful load development entails reducing charges a minimum of 10% by weight anytime you are changing production lots of powder and increasing charge weight slowly measuring velocity with a chronograph and comparing to known performance levels.
Accuracy – We have achieved consistent accuracy levels over 5 shots of 2 MOA out to 200 yards. Bullets with pointed ogives (non-hollow points) exhibit higher levels of accuracy with best achieved accuracy of 1/2 inch at 50 yards for 5 shots.
Upon request, we have calculated the minimum velocities required to achieve a flight path that is plus or minus 3 inches of the point of aim from muzzle to 200 Yards with a 175 yard zero range and 2.5 sight / scope height.

• Hornady 200 Grain FTX: 2320 fps
• Hornady 225 Grain FTX: 2320 fps
• Hornady 230 Grain FMJ (Encapsulated): 2195 fps
• Hornady 240 Grain XTP MAG: 2265 fps
• Hornady 250 Grain FTX: 2140 fps
• Hornady 300 Grain XTP MAG: 2165 fps

If you develop an accurate load with a velocity above these levels, you are achieving a +/- 3 inch flight trajectory from muzzle to 200 yards when using a 175 yard zero and 2.5 sight / scope height. Due to the ballistic coefficients of bullets, you will not increase effective range significantly by pushing for higher velocities. As Colonel Townsend Whelen said “only accurate rifles are interesting” so be accurate and confident when you head to the hunting field.
45 Raptor Minimum Velocities Ballistic Chart
Additional Documents:
45 RAPTOR Ballistics Chart
45 RAPTOR BALLISTICS
45 RAPTOR vs 450 Bushmaster vs 458 SOCOM vs 50 Beowulf Comparison Chart
45 RAPTOR vs 450 Bushmaster vs 458 SOCOM vs 50 Beowulf

 

[ScouT6a]

After looking at all the data, I am not impressed over my .450 Bushmaster. Minus a couple hundred fps and a couple tenths of an inch on trajectory and wind drift, Bushmaster shooters have the same benefits except it can be done with an AR-15 platform instead of stepping up to the added weight/bulk/expense of an AR-10 platform.

 

[Broom_jm]

The longer you are around the world of wildcat cartridges, the less often you will think of one as a "fairly new and incredibly exciting cartridge". It's all been done, ad nauseum, to the point where the differences between any of them are truly nominal.

The 308x1.5" was introduced years ago, and was subsequently necked up and down to almost anything you can imagine. The 35-caliber version could be lengthened to 1.8" and be virtually identical, from a performance perspective. The 35 IHMSA is very similar, except it was made on a reformed 300 Savage case.

By the time you neck down the 460S&W case, you wind up with a pretty small increase in powder capacity over the the 358 Hoosier and it's probably less than the 358WSM 1.8", both of which will run in an AR-10, if the pressures are kept reasonable. Given that this would be used for hunting, where the first shot is essentially the only one that matters, why get all worked up over a round with similar performance numbers, simply because it runs in an AR?

 

[Dwight D]

To put this in perspective, .460 S&W is fired tested from 8 3/8" barrels. At that barrel length, it is formidable to say the least. However, we're talking about shooting this out of a 16" barrel. Some of you .460 guys KNOW this, but essentially now we're talking KE in the .45-70 to .458 Win Mag range. From a semi-auto rifle with a 20 rd mag. It can kill anything in North America. Can we say ultimate guide gun?

I LIKE IT!

A semi auto with big bullets sounds like the ultimate Sasquatch defense gun!

 

[17 squirrel]

The longer you are around the world of wildcat cartridges, the less often you will think of one as a "fairly new and incredibly exciting cartridge". It's all been done, ad nauseum, to the point where the differences between any of them are truly nominal.

The 308x1.5" was introduced years ago, and was subsequently necked up and down to almost anything you can imagine. The 35-caliber version could be lengthened to 1.8" and be virtually identical, from a performance perspective. The 35 IHMSA is very similar, except it was made on a reformed 300 Savage case.

By the time you neck down the 460S&W case, you wind up with a pretty small increase in powder capacity over the the 358 Hoosier and it's probably less than the 358WSM 1.8", both of which will run in an AR-10, if the pressures are kept reasonable. Given that this would be used for hunting, where the first shot is essentially the only one that matters, why get all worked up over a round with similar performance numbers, simply because it runs in an AR?

Yep... Nothing new here, about the same as 458 X 1.5 Barnes and
460 Alliance if memory serves me correctly. The Barnes goes back to Vietnam. Lots of cartridge's have been made from cut off 308- 30-06 cases.

 

[Broom_jm]

Yep... Nothing new here, about the same as 458 X 1.5 Barnes and
460 Alliance if memory serves me correctly. The Barnes goes back to Vietnam. Lots of cartridge's have been made from cut off 308- 30-06 cases.

458 American, trimmed .200", with a rimless head instead of belted?

The 348 Winchester case, with the rim turned off and a groove cut, was the basis for an entire family of 'cats, 50 years ago or more.

 

[redpitbull44]

All of the ones you guys are referencing are cut downs or neck changes. This is a completely new cartridge. From base to shoulder a .308 case is 1.5598". This is 1.8" case length. Most wildcats start out as something else then get reformed. This is being mass produced. I understand there are others that are close, but thus far none have been so readily available and come out so heavily supported (components, dies, barrels, premade magazines etc).
Anyways, thought I'd share. Never hurts to have more knowledge.

And yes. Sasquatch killer is an appropriate descriptor.

 

[17 squirrel]

And I'm not being obtuse here but that's exactly what this case is, its a 308 case with the neck expanded out.
In reloading almost all of new is something old brought back again.
Here's what the man that designed it says.

Master cartridge designer Arne Brennan, the original inventor of the concept that became the 6.5mm Grendel, has developed a new round for the AR-10 platform. The 45 RAPTOR case is a necked up .308 Winchester case with a case length and body dimensions of a .460 S&W. It packs a much greater punch (30+% more energy at 100 yards) than AR-15 big bore cartridges such as .50 Beowulf, .450 Bushmaster or .458 SOCOM.

- See more at: Introducing the 45 RAPTOR Cartridge for the AR-10 - The Firearm Blog

It looks like a interesting cartridge to have. But at 80 + cents apiece for brass I would just cut off 30-06 brass and form my own.
Good Post, Thanks.

 

[Dwight D]

Its a great concept, new or old, what makes this nice it that it is available and packs significantly more punch then a 458 socom. From my testing in my 45-70 guide gun with a 16 in barrel, I think the raptor will beat it. The max chamber pressure allowable is quite a bit higher. I just wish it was a .458 and not a .452, I love the Barnes . 458 originals.

 

[17 squirrel]

Its a great concept, new or old, what makes this nice it that it is available and packs significantly more punch then a 458 socom. From my testing in my 45-70 guide gun with a 16 in barrel, I think the raptor will beat it. The max chamber pressure allowable is quite a bit higher. I just wish it was a .458 and not a .452, I love the Barnes . 458 originals.

That's a easy fix, just resize Barnes bullets. Order a sizer die from Corbin or someone else and resize the a few thousands. No big deal.

 

[redpitbull44]

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That's a easy fix, just resize Barnes bullets. Order a sizer die from Corbin or someone else and resize the a few thousands. No big deal.

THIS

And using .30-06 honestly hadn't exactly occurred to me, but finding a straight wall .308 had (my mind was in the .45-70 to .45-120 world for some reason). Makes me wanna put out a call for .30-06 brass to try on.

 

[Dwight D]

Im kinda holding out for an Ar platform in 458 Lott

 

[Broom_jm]

Having dealt with the unique challenges of the 30 Carbine, a high-pressure rifle cartridge that headspaces on the case mouth, I have no interest in the 450BM, 458 SOCOM or other such incarnations.

Call me old-school, but revolvers and lever-actions should shoot rimmed cartridges, semi-auto pistols should shoot rimless cartridges, and bolt-action or semi-auto rifles should shoot bottle-necked cartridges. There are very good reasons why these are considered the norm for each respective action type...deviations therefrom do not typically go well.

 

[cncswiss1]

250 dos faster than 458 socom is significant! This cartridge is a bruiser!
i may have to build one

 

[redpitbull44]

Im kinda holding out for an Ar platform in 458 Lott

.338 LM has more KE and there are a handful of ARs built just for it. DRD Kivaari, Nemo Omen, Alexander Arms Ulfbert and Noreen Bad News .338 come to mind right off.
BUT in the hierarchy or .45x" calibers, .458 Lott (and it's derivatives) is king.

 

[malern28us]

I was all about the .45 Raptor...even purchased a 308 lower/upper combo. After tons of research, i ended up deciding against it. Cost, parts and reliability all affected my decision. I ended up going with building my own .308 AR. Easiest build and most reliable rifle I own. Runs like a sewing machine and with all the custom parts I got it was still cheaper than a 45 Raptor build. The bonus of getting 20 rounds of .308 from walmart any time i want to is another huge factor.