Form 1 rule change! 4h additional desc.

[sicegcivic]

4h, (additional description)

New rules require FULL first name FULL Last name if you fill this section in. In the past first initial and last name was acceptable. Ex: J. Smith now has to be John Smith.

This includes the engraved name on lower.

This is coming from my NFA rep, who returned my forms for correction. She stated that it is a new requirement that both full names are used.

Just a heads up for anyone thinking about submitting these forms in the near future.

Thanks
-Don

 

[ryknoll3]

That's why for your own sake you should just leave 4h blank. You won't have any trouble if you do. Those that insist on filling it in run into stuff like this all the time.

Also, this requirement isn't new. It's always been required that you engrave your name exactly as it appears in box 1. If you put something different in 4h, it will be rejected.

Moral of the story... leave 4h blank.

 

[sicegcivic]

I suppose the point I was making is that in the past the first initial was acceptable, and is no longer allowed. From what I understand that goes for the engraving on the lower, even if 4h is left blank. Correct me if I am wrong though... Just what I was told today by my examiner.

 

[CountryBoy19]

I suppose the point I was making is that in the past the first initial was acceptable, and is no longer allowed. From what I understand that goes for the engraving on the lower, even if 4h is left blank. Correct me if I am wrong though... Just what I was told today by my examiner.

From a legal standpoint, first initial was NEVER acceptable. But from an examiner standpoint, sometimes it slips by them although they've been cracking down on it in the last 7 or 8 years, maybe more. Either way, even if your forms got approved with First initial in box 4H, that is irrelevant. The law states specifically that only recognized abbreviations are permitted on the engraving. J is not a recognized abbreviation for John. If I put J. Smith on the gun there is no way of knowing in my name is John, Jerry, Jody, Jaime, Jamie, etc etc, which is why Full First Name has always been the requirement for your engraving.

 

[Clay]

so what about all of the thousands of NFA items engraved with first initials? are they technically "illegal"?

 

[hondatech2k2]

so what about all of the thousands of NFA items engraved with first initials? are they technically "illegal"?

I would err on the side of caution. As Andrew told me; "what happens if you get someone with something to prove, then you are in court paying legal fees just to prove something you know is true/fact, but they do not."

This is why I immediately called Laser Scribe and had them change my data to my FULL first and last name. Those that have first initial and last name might have issues. I choose to lessen confrontations...

 

[sicegcivic]

From a legal standpoint, first initial was NEVER acceptable. But from an examiner standpoint, sometimes it slips by them although they've been cracking down on it in the last 7 or 8 years, maybe more. Either way, even if your forms got approved with First initial in box 4H, that is irrelevant. The law states specifically that only recognized abbreviations are permitted on the engraving. J is not a recognized abbreviation for John. If I put J. Smith on the gun there is no way of knowing in my name is John, Jerry, Jody, Jaime, Jamie, etc etc, which is why Full First Name has always been the requirement for your engraving.

^ this ^

Basically they are "cracking down" on what gets through.... Thanks for clarifying what I was trying to say. This was simply ment to be helpful for the ammatures and vets alike.

 

[dubsac]

That's why for your own sake you should just leave 4h blank. You won't have any trouble if you do. Those that insist on filling it in run into stuff like this all the time.

Also, this requirement isn't new. It's always been required that you engrave your name exactly as it appears in box 1. If you put something different in 4h, it will be rejected.

Moral of the story... leave 4h blank.

Left 4h blank and got approved no problem

 

[CountryBoy19]

so what about all of the thousands of NFA items engraved with first initials? are they technically "illegal"?

Technically, yes, they're not engraved within the legal requirements. Will they ever be caught? That's a different story.

Left 4h blank and got approved no problem

That proves nothing other than the fact that you didn't follow the law when engraving your lower.

I could make an illegal machine-gun today, and possibly even post pictures of it on the internet, but that doesn't make it legal to do, even if I don't get caught/prosecuted for it.

 

[dubsac]

Blah, blah, blah

(iii) Your name (or recognized abbreviation) and also, when
applicable, the name of the foreign manufacturer or maker;

Thanks for giving your opinion definition of "recognized abbreviation" it means a lot

ATF has never defined "recognized abbreviation." For addresses, two-letter state designations (VA, FL, etc.) are obviously acceptable; apparently city abbreviations are as well, because many manufacturers use them (fer instance, Vector engraves "NSL" for "North Salt Lake").

For names, we have been on our own, with no ATF regs until the "trusts must engrave complete name" ruling. I've always believed that you had to spell out the entire last name but had a choice of just first name, or first and middle initials.

The marking is required for identification purposes, and either approach accomplishes that goal. ATF handed down the trust engraving ruling after folks started posting everywhere that, for the "Joseph and Josephine Smith Family Revokable Living Trust" of Baltimore, Maryland, they had only engraved "JJSRLT / BM." And I can see how ATF would call that insufficient for identification purposes.

 

[CountryBoy19]

Thanks for giving your opinion definition of "recognized abbreviation" it means a lot

No need to get s***y with me about it. I think the definition of "recognized abbreviation" is pretty clear. You can deny it all you want because the ATF specifically hasn't laid out a clear definition, but you'll lose in court if you ever find yourself there.

rec·og·nize (r

k

g-n

z

)
tr.v. rec·og·nized, rec·og·niz·ing, rec·og·niz·es 1. To know to be something that has been perceived before: recognize a face.
2. To know or identify from past experience or knowledge: recognize hostility.
3. To perceive or show acceptance of the validity or reality of: recognizes the concerns of the tenants.
4. To permit to address a meeting: The club's president recognized the new member.
5. To accept officially the national status of as a new government.
6. To show awareness of; approve of or appreciate: recognize services rendered.
7. To admit the acquaintance of, as by salutation: recognize an old friend with a cheerful greeting.
8. Law To enter into a recognizance.
9. Biology To exhibit recognition for (an antigen or a substrate, for example).

abbreviation [əˌbriːvɪˈeɪʃən]
n 1. a shortened or contracted form of a word or phrase used in place of the whole
2. the process or result of abbreviating

Put the 2 together and you get "a shortened or contracted form of a word or phrase" "that is known from past experience or knowledge".

The intent of the law is to be able to identify, without a doubt, who the manufacturer is/was. Abbreviating even part of the name remove the "without a doubt" part of that. If you really don't understand how J is not a recognized abbreviation for John then

ATF has never defined "recognized abbreviation." For addresses, two-letter state designations (VA, FL, etc.) are obviously acceptable; apparently city abbreviations are as well, because many manufacturers use them (fer instance, Vector engraves "NSL" for "North Salt Lake").

ATF doesn't need to define "recognized abbreviation" it is rather self-explanatory. Do you have any evidence contrary to that?

Abbreviation would the be shortening of a word or name. Recognized abbreviation would the shortening of a word or name that is RECOGNIZED to be the short form of a very specific word/phrase. Sometimes it may need context to be recognized without a doubt. Example: NSL could stand for anything really. But in the context of a City, State form where the state is Utah, it is very easily recognized as North Salt Lake, Utah. Same thing for LA, CA. That doesn't mean I can put LA, IN and have it recognized.

That brings about another facet of what "recognized" means in this context. Does it mean everybody has to know what it is? No, not at all. Does it mean a significant portion of people must know what it is (ie, recognize it), yes, that's precisely what it means.

For names, we have been on our own, with no ATF regs until the "trusts must engrave complete name" ruling. I've always believed that you had to spell out the entire last name but had a choice of just first name, or first and middle initials.

The marking is required for identification purposes, and either approach accomplishes that goal. ATF handed down the trust engraving ruling after folks started posting everywhere that, for the "Joseph and Josephine Smith Family Revokable Living Trust" of Baltimore, Maryland, they had only engraved "JJSRLT / BM." And I can see how ATF would call that insufficient for identification purposes.

You're right in that is what sparked the ATF to "hand-down" the ruling, but that applies universally to individuals as well. The ATF saw a lack in clarity and they filled it. That does not mean it was "legal" until they handed the ruling down, it just meant that they were "clarifying" what the letter of the law was. Think about it. The ATF, by making "rulings" does not change the legality of anything, they merely clarify what is legal and what isn't. That doesn't mean that people that did it wrong before the clarification are going to be prosecuted, but it does mean that they are technically in violation of the law. It's a catch 22 really. I certainly wouldn't be boasting about it online though. Just as the people that have "remade" machineguns or 3rd party suppressors that were "remade" by AAC. The few people that have things like that keep it relatively quiet because they know they have something "illegal" that they thought was legal at the time they did it and the ATF came along later and said, "No, that's illegal".

Either way, you can deny it all you want, but a single initial, is not a recognized abbreviation for a person's name. It's an abbreviation for sure, but the critical part here is "recognized" which means that somebody can look at it, and without a doubt, know what it stands for.

 

[Destro]

just because something is approved by the BATFE does not make it "legal", There are plenty of things BATFE has said are legal that got people in trouble

 

[dubsac]

No need to get s***y with me about it.

meant no disrespect or to hurt ur feelings.

You can deny it all you want because the ATF specifically hasn't laid out a clear definition

I mentioned that

ATF doesn't need to define "recognized abbreviation" it is rather self-explanatory. Do you have any evidence contrary to that?

No evidence, just know it is NOT a requirement for filling out box 4h which all of this is regarding.

just because something is approved by the BATFE does not make it "legal", There are plenty of things BATFE has said are legal that got people in trouble

Agree 110%

And after all of this I've learned........................ to keep box 4h blank

 

[ryknoll3]

One other thing... you can't always go on what mfg's do as proof that something is automatically permissible. They can file for marking variances. Vector may have filed for a marking variance allowing them to mark NSL for North Salt Lake, where someone without an approved variance may not be allowed to do that.

Another instance of marking variances are for mfg's that make stuff for others. Say Bushmaster makes an AR lower for Remington. Bushmaster would have to file for a variance to mark Remington's name on the lower.

All this to say, when you fill out a Form 1, leave 4h blank. You will get approved without anything in there, but you CAN get jammed up if you put the wrong info in the box.

When you get your item engraved, use the info that you put in box 1 on the form, as it's printed there.