Gun Safe Installation

[revance]

I am looking into buying my first real safe.

Currently I have mostly pistols and they are kept in a GunVault and a cheap Harbor Freight safe. Long guns are just kept in my closet with cable locks. I would like to replace those with something fire rated and big enough to hold long guns along with ammo and other valuables.

Here is my dilemma... I don't have anyplace in my home to put a large safe except my bedroom which is upstairs. I might be able to make room in the garage.

Garage: Humidity might be a problem. It also puts the safe near a lot of flammable things that will provide fuel during a fire. I don't imagine this is great for its performance in a fire. My wife also has trouble remembering to put the garage door down when she gets home. I don't want to advertise to everyone driving by that I have a big safe in the garage.

Upstairs in bedroom: No humidity problems, but heat rises during a fire. How much of a difference does that make? What about the floor burning out from underneath it and it falling down a flight? Most importantly... how the heck do you get a 700lb safe up and down the stairs?


Where is best? Any input on this is greatly appreciated.

 

[IndianaResident]

This is more of a suggestion than input, as you seem to have layed out the problems with both fairly well.

If you really don't have any other spots for it, could you partition off part of your garage? A smaller room would be more receptive to a dehumidifier's efforts, and keep the safe from prying eyes. It could even have a lock on the door, and best of all.....you may get a man-cave out of it.

 

[shootinghoosier]

I think humidity and condensation could be a problem in the garage, plus you are really on the mark with your comment about the wrong eyes being able to see it in the garage.

I did not have a good spot for my safe either, but was able to move all the junk out of a closet and it fit (barely, but it fit). I purchased mine from Johnson Safe and it was probably the smallest one on their list. Bad thing is that I've already stuffed it to the gills...what they say about buying a larger safe than you think you need is very accurate.

 

[revance]

IndianaResident: That is a good idea, but I would already be squeezing it into the garage. If I had a 3 car garage and more room, that would be an awesome idea. The way it is, I don't even have room to make a closet in the garage.

shootinghoosier: Sadly, there is only one closet downstairs. It is a small coat closet that is packed. I even ripped out the wall from behind it so we could store Christmas stuff behind it under the stairs. Our house just doesn't have much storage space.

Does anyone here have experience installing a 500-700lb safe upstairs?

 

[Cherryspringer]

Just saw an ad on craigs list for a 7' x 7' x 3'd safe from the basement of the tippecanoe co. Courthouse. They were asking $1000. But how cool.

 

[IndianaResident]

I understand this is ridiculous, really I do, but if space is that much of a commodity, maybe you need to consider a nontraditional safe, a la

BedBunker Concealed Gun Safe

Now I'll let the handymen step in and talk about safes falling through floors.

 

[revance]

Yeah, I doubt that one in Tippecanoe Co. is going to fit

As for the bed thing... I really want this to be a functional safe that I can get in/out of.

I'm thinking the bedroom is the best place. I can't imagine the heat upstairs would be all that much different than the heat downstairs when the house is on fire. If the house is burnt bad enough to make it fall through the floor, I have bigger worries. I wonder if the safe would survive that fall enough to continue protecting from the fire.

Anyone have experience getting one moved up the stairs? Do you have to hire special movers for that or can regular movers take care of it?

 

[westfork]

i don't have any suggestions on where to put your safe - sounds like you are very limited on space and upstairs is the only option that makes sense to me not having seen the overall real layout of your home.

if putting the safe upstairs is your only/best option then it can be done. i (and another guy on here who i'm sure will see this and maybe chime in on) have some bit of experience moving large heavy things into strange places they don't belong - think pool tables, arcade games, safes, etc...

if you have the room in your stairwell, no overhead clearance problems, can do some good eyeball geometry, and don't have any complicated landings on your stairs, a few strong backs with patience and good communication skills can get that safe up the stairs. it is tough, but it can be done. take down any handrails, valuables, slick rugs, things of that nature... measure, measure, and re-measure. i have been in several situations where everyone just assumed something would fit up or down some stairs, plopped down a bunch of money for the item/delivery guys, and then everything went to crap when we actually saw what we had to work with.

if $ is no issue i am sure you could track down a safe company or some movers who might have dedicated equipment such as a lectro-truck or similar. these powered aids are nice when you are proficient at operating them, but often times will not fit in a residential stairwell.

ancient peoples built pyramids without all this stuff. strong backs and a plan is usually the best last resort.

 

[Zombieman34]

That bed bunker safe looks awesome! It might make me seem less crazy for saying i sleep with my gun under a mattress.

 

[shootinghoosier]

I live in a ranch home that has a crawl space and my safe is in the 675 lb. area. Seems like that would be somewhat similar to the issues you are concerned about on the second floor of your home.

Suggest you get a hold of Johnson Safe and ask for their opinion. The owner is installing a bunch of safes and he surely has installed them on a second floor, and can probably tell you where things max out.

 

[Fenway]

Jeff Johnson builds his safes in your town and he delivers them (even up stairs) Might want to give a call to discuss your options

 

[troy28]

What you are describing sounds doable on paper. Think about your safe as 4 grown 200lb men standing in a circle talking at a party. If your floor can handle that weight it will handle your safe. Try and place it in a corner closest to an outside support walls or load bearing walls.

In terms of fire you are correct if it's hot enough to burn through the floor you have bigger issues at hand. If you are really concerned with the fire issue invest in a house alarm that is also wired to a smoke detector to send the fire department at the first sign of smoke. You should also get a discount on your home owners and firearm insurance to cover the monthly monitoring bill and you get a security system as well.

For moving it there is a guy:

James Weimer
260-417-1345
ex2013@gmail.com

He is a professional Safe mover completely insured. The above information may or may not be out of date. I have not personally used him, as I am not at that point yet, but he had great reviews. He will come check out the job, make sure it can be done, and give you a written estimate. He is who the Gander Mountain in Castelton and Greenwood recommend. I personally do not like Gander Mountain but, he is a private business that you have to contact and set up, not a Gander Mountain employee.

He may even have other suggestions for you once he sees the job. If memory serves me he is also not a $100 service but, he comes insured and defiantly is a master of his trade.

Good Luck

 

[revance]

I should clarify... I am not worried about the weight of the safe being upstairs (at least not the size I can afford). I have had aquariums that weigh WAAAAY more than that upstairs. I am familiar with how to calculate the maximum weight the floor can accommodate in any given area of my home (direction of joists, length of span, distance to supporting wall, etc).

I was more concerned with what would happen in a FIRE. Obviously if the fire is bad enough, those joists are going to collapse. The question is... will the safe continue to protect the contents from fire after falling 10'? Is the point at which that might happen well beyond the fire rating anyway? I suppose I should ask my firefighter friends about that.

My biggest concern was getting it up/down the stairs. I am guessing I would probably just have to hire someone.

 

[IndyBeerman]

I was more concerned with what would happen in a FIRE. Obviously if the fire is bad enough, those joists are going to collapse. The question is... will the safe continue to protect the contents from fire after falling 10'? Is the point at which that might happen well beyond the fire rating anyway? I suppose I should ask my firefighter friends about that.

My biggest concern was getting it up/down the stairs. I am guessing I would probably just have to hire someone.

I think you're overlooking one thing....

If you have a fire at your house that is intense enough to burn through the ceiling and cause joist failure, the fire is already hot enough to be above most safes 1200 degree fire rating.

Couple the heat with a 10 foot drop and it will surely cause one or more of the following failures:

Seam breakage
Seal failure
Stress fracture

One thing you might consider is if you have a room big enough downstairs is to reconstruct a little so you can locate a safe without drawing attention to it. Something like a pantry that slides out with the safe behind it.

At my old house we was also limited on space and I located it in a hallway closet after taking out the door frame and sliding it in, and then putting the frame back in around it. I then packed things on and around it so I was till able to use it and hold the safe also.

 

[ThrottleJockey]

I have moved my 900 pounder up and down stairs a few times. not easy, but do-able. Then again I worked for a moving company and have the right equipment. If you have problems, don't be afraid to call Mayflower, they have electric powered stair climbing appliance dollies...or, depending on where you are located, I have a LARGE tilt back appliance dolly that I use but you will need a minimum of 3 strong backed men. I can almost always handle 3-4 steps by myself just using my brain, but a full flight takes muscle or a forklift. Another thing to think about is if you want an RSC or if you really want to shell out $3000 plus for an actual safe. Always try to get it into a corner, bolt it down and bolt it to the wall. I also recommend staying away from digital/electronic locks, even the biometrics. If possible try to get one with a dial AND a key, and try to get one that doesn't require a locksmith and a check for $400 plus to change the combo. Oh and be sure you even CAN change the combo as most RSCs avail don't have this feature in the lock. This little video gets really interesting right about 2.5 minutes in.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBhOjWHbD6M]YouTube - Security on Sale Gun safe Prying video[/ame]

UL ratings:

Burglary Ratings

B1 — Theft resistant (minimum security)
B2 — Underwriters’ Laboratories Residential Security Container label
B3 — Non-rated anti-theft (incorporates features of high security safes
without a UL rating)
B4 — Underwriters’ Laboratories TL-15 label
B5 — Underwriters’ Laboratories TL-30 label
B6 — Underwriters’ Laboratories TL-30X6 or TRTL-30 label
Fire Ratings
FR — Fire resistant unrated insulated safe
1/2 hr — UL class 350. Protects valuables for up to 30 minutes with outside temperature of 1550 degrees.
1 hr — UL class 350. Protects valuables for up to 1 hour with outside temperature of 1700 degrees.
1 hr+ — UL class 350. Protects valuables for up to 1 hour with an outside temperature of 1700 degrees, plus survived drop test from 30 feet.
2 hr — UL class 350. Protects valuables for up to 2 hours with an outside temperature of 1850 degrees.
2 hr+ — UL class 350. Protects valuables for up to 2 hours with outside temperature of 1850 degrees, plus survived drop test onto rubble from 30 feet
UL Underwriters' Laboratories (UL) - UL is a non-profit, non-bias agency that tests and rates the safety and performance of consumer products. Safes that have earned specific UL ratings will carry a UL label which designates the product's security and fire-protection ratings.
Net Working Time - This is the UL term for testing time which is spent trying to break into a safe using tools such as diamond grinding wheels, high-speed drills with pressure applying devices, or common hand tools such as hammers, chisels, saws, and carbide-tip drills. If a safe has been rated with a 30-minute net working time, (TL30), the rating certifies that the safe successfully withstood a full 30 minutes of attack time with a range of tools.
Theft resistant - This rating means the safe provides a combination lock and minimal theft protection.
Residential Security Container rating (RSC) - This UL rating is based on testing conducted for a net working time of five minutes, on all sides, with a range of tools.
TL-15 rating - The TL-15 rating means the safe has been tested for a net working time of 15 minutes using high speed drills, saws and other sophisticated penetrating equipment.
TL-30 rating - A product carrying the TL-30 security label has been tested for a net working time of 30 minutes with the same types of tools mentioned above.
TL-30 x 6 - The TL-30 (30-minute) test is conducted on all six (6) sides of the safe.
TRTL-30 - The TRTL rating designates a safe which successfully resisted 30 minutes of net working time with a torch and a range of tools which might include high speed drills and saws with carbide bits, pry bars, and other impact devices.

Additionally, do yourself a HUGE favor and READ THIS!!! it is the most important info you may ever receive. Safes And RSC's, An Overview - GunRightsMedia

 

[CountryBoy19]

ETA, these aren't my pics. I took them from a thread on arfcom to give the OP some ideas.

 

[revance]

I have to say... THAT is an awesome idea.

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

Another simpler idea for garage use:

One of those plug-in in-safe dehumidifiers + silica gel might very well help the humidy issue.

As far as security; a tarp and/or a sheet draped over something will hide things quite nicely.

-J-

 

[Titanium Man]

A big tip off of a crappy safe is the thickness of the door steel. If it's less than 3/8", it can be bashed in with a sledge, and then the pry bars go to work. That video is very telling, and so true. It was what motivated me into selling my safe(s) like the one broken into, and replacing it with a much bigger, sturdier vault weighing 2000+lbs empty. I sleep much better if I'm ever out of town.

 

[eldirector]

I'm in pretty much the same boat as the OP. The "best" place for my safe is the upstairs walk-in closet. I talked with Jeff Johnson @ Johnson Safe at a recent 1500, and he pretty much had no concerns with my setup. I am eye-balling one of his smaller safes, so the weight (loaded) is in the 700# range. His safes are all 1-hour fire rated @ 2300*. That's a heck of a fire, and a slooooow response by the fire department.

Jeff delivers, even up stairs! Besides, 500# isn't all that bad. A good mover's dolly and some strong backs would make short work of it.