M16 kit

[shootersix]

im saying that if the op buy's this kit, and assembles it in a semi auto lower,and uses the full auto parts, that the op is making a full auto m16, even though it wont be a full auto, the batfe will consider it a m-16, if the op wants to buy this kit i just want him(and he might know already) to know that he legally cant use all of the parts he buy's

i cant speak for bennettjh, but i think he was high lighting my post, or seconding my opinion, sometimes people will scan through post's (im guilty of that myself) and might miss my post, i just don't want any member of this(or any forum) to end up in hot water, for something that could be avoided by someone telling him something that might keep him out of club-fed.

http://www.ar15.com/content/legal/AR15-M16Parts/index.html

from ar15.com

 

[Mr Evilwrench]

Took a good look at the pic; it appears to include an autosear.

 

[indyjohn]

Took a good look at the pic; it appears to include an autosear.

Any person exercising common sense would expect a company of that size would represent their product to require a stamp if necessary. I think all the NFA guys are just sitting back and snickering at this thread because they know there aren't any parts in that kit that would make a completed gun auto fire capable.

Come on. Really?

 

[rob63]

I recently purchased an M-16 kit (although I got mine from RTI and it was much cheaper than this one) and am in the process of building a retro AR so I have studied up on the legalities of it all. You are only in trouble with the BATF if you actually build a weapon capable of automatic fire. The M-16 hammer, disconnector, and selector lever are easily modified with a grinding wheel so that they are functionally identical to the AR-15 parts (the modified hammer and disconnector are quite literally identical to AR-15 parts while the modified selector lever simply has an extra position for semi-auto fire).

There seems to be a lot of confusion posted on the web by those who don't understand how the weapon actually works. Simply removing the tab from the rear of the M-16 disconnector is enough to ensure that it cannot fire automatically. Likewise, installing an M-16 disconnector with an M-16 selector lever will make it fire automatically regardless of whether the auto-sear is installed. The M-16 hammer and auto-sear do not make it fire automatically, they do, however, prevent it from firing out of battery while in the automatic mode and thus are critical to safety in that mode. (The only thing the auto-sear does is retard the hammer until the BCG has moved fully forward.) The M-16 trigger is identical to the AR-15 trigger except for a small cutout that allows the M-16 disconnector to be installed. Thus, installing an M-16 trigger does absolutely nothing different than an AR-15 trigger so long as the disconnector has been modified.

This is a very long way of saying that if you purchase an M-16 kit there is absolutely no need to purchase a separate trigger group, you simply need to modify the appropriate parts to ensure that it functions solely as a semi-auto and this is very, very easy to do. As far as the legalities are concerned using modified M-16 parts is no different that using an M-16 BCG; how the rifle functions is what matters.

Here is a diagram from the web that shows which tabs you have to grind off, highlighted in red. If you want to do this, take the time to examine the parts and learn how they actually work, you will understand your rifle much better.
View attachment 25156

 

[mike45]

Thanks rob63 reps coming to ya.
What is RTI?

 

[rvb]

rob63 has the tech parts right.

For more info on atf's legal interpretation, please read my posts in the following thread:
https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/class-iii-nfa/323709-considered-intent.html

a highlight:

from the NFA Handbook:

section 2.1.6, pg 14

The definition of machinegun also includes a combination of parts from which a machinegun can be
assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person. An example of a firearm
meeting this section of the definition is a semiautomatic AR15 rifle possessed with an M16 bolt carrier,
hammer, trigger, disconnector and selector. If the semiautomatic AR15 is assembled with the described
M16 parts and the rifle is capable of fully automatic fire, the weapon possessed in conjunction with the
M16 parts, whether assembled or not, is a machinegun as defined

link:
http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8.pdf

edit: note the list of parts in the quoted portion of the NFA handbook does NOT include an autosear, for the reason rob63 mentions, you don't need it to make it run FA. Even w/o an autosear, if you have an AR and have the other M16 parts (unmodified), you have a MG, whether they are assembled in the rifle or not.

-rvb

 

[BGDave]

Thanks rob63 reps coming to ya.
What is RTI?

Royal Tiger

 

[Mr Evilwrench]

Here's that bad ol' autosear, smallest machine gun in the world:

Well, smack me in the nose with a rolled up newspaper. I do have a hard time thinking the bolt carrier will set the hammer down hard enough to bust one of those hard primers, but the experts that make the rules aren't the brightest bulbs in the chandelier. Guess I'll continue not having any sears and make sure my selectors are all unglamorous until that glorious day when the NFA and Hughes amendment are repealed. Hey, I can dream!

 

[BGDave]

Here's that bad ol' autosear, smallest machine gun in the world:

Well, smack me in the nose with a rolled up newspaper. I do have a hard time thinking the bolt carrier will set the hammer down hard enough to bust one of those hard primers, but the experts that make the rules aren't the brightest bulbs in the chandelier. Guess I'll continue not having any sears and make sure my selectors are all unglamorous until that glorious day when the NFA and Hughes amendment are repealed. Hey, I can dream!

I'm with you on hammer follow. Also considering the firing pin is too "short" without the bolt being rotated into lock-up. Seem to remember the feds got busted on this one for using pistol primers.

 

[rob63]

From Appendix B of the BATF handbook referenced above:

"In order to avoid violations of the NFA, M16, hammers, triggers, disconnectors, selectors and bolt
carriers must not be used in assembly of AR-15 type semiautomatic rifles, unless the M16 parts have
been modified to AR-15 Model SP1 configuration. Any AR-15 type rifles which have been assembled
with M16 internal components should have those parts removed and replaced with AR-15 Model SP1
type parts which are available commercially. The M16 components also may be modified to AR-15
Model SP1 configuration."

I take this paragraph, combined with the parts rvb posted, to mean that it makes sense to modify the parts before you purchase your lower so that you are not technically in violation of the law. I guess it would become more problematic for you if you already own another AR-15, but that wasn't a problem I had.

 

[Cameramonkey]

rob63 has the tech parts right.

For more info on atf's legal interpretation, please read my posts in the following thread:
https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/class-iii-nfa/323709-considered-intent.html

a highlight:

from the NFA Handbook:

section 2.1.6, pg 14


link:
http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8.pdf

edit: note the list of parts in the quoted portion of the NFA handbook does NOT include an autosear, for the reason rob63 mentions, you don't need it to make it run FA. Even w/o an autosear, if you have an AR and have the other M16 parts (unmodified), you have a MG, whether they are assembled in the rifle or not.

-rvb

but if your lower isnt milled to accept the m16 parts, Its STILL intent?

 

[rvb]

but if your lower isnt milled to accept the m16 parts, Its STILL intent?

No, worse. If you have an AR (no 3rd pin hole) and you own the M16 fire control components listed, you have a contraband machine gun, not just "intent." That's what the NFA handbook says.

its F'd up, but that's where we are.....

-rvb

 

[Cameramonkey]

No, worse. If you have an AR (no 3rd pin hole) and you own the M16 fire control components listed, you have a contraband machine gun, not just "intent." That's what the NFA handbook says.

its F'd up, but that's where we are.....

-rvb

Give the state of govt affairs, why does this NOT surprise me?

And we are absolutely SURE SG is selling all the naughty parts? If its this easy to run afoul of the law, you would think they wouldnt be selling the kit if it does.

Its not like the AR is a popular platform with millions of owners out there...

 

[rvb]

Give the state of govt affairs, why does this NOT surprise me?

And we are absolutely SURE SG is selling all the naughty parts? If its this easy to run afoul of the law, you would think they wouldnt be selling the kit if it does.

Its not like the AR is a popular platform with millions of owners out there...

i didn't look at the ad closely, but I thnk they omit the disco, so it's not all the parts in the atfs naughty list.

-rvb

 

[Bill B]

the ad specifically states

Complete with everything but the receiver, disconnector and barrel

 

[rob63]

Another oddity of the whole thing... if you were to take an M-16 auto-sear and install it in an AR-15 it would do absolutely nothing. If you keep the AR-15 disconnector in the rifle you will still have a rifle that is only capable of semi-auto fire regardless of anything else you do to it. Obviously, it wouldn't be wise to do that, but most of the legal issues with the auto-sear are probably due to the name it was given rather than the function it actually performs. If they had simply called it a reliability and safety device meant to insure that the hammer doesn't ride the bolt back and that the bolt is closed before the weapon can be fired then the BATF would probably insist that every AR-15 should have one.

 

[BGDave]

Another oddity of the whole thing... if you were to take an M-16 auto-sear and install it in an AR-15 it would do absolutely nothing. If you keep the AR-15 disconnector in the rifle you will still have a rifle that is only capable of semi-auto fire regardless of anything else you do to it. Obviously, it wouldn't be wise to do that, but most of the legal issues with the auto-sear are probably due to the name it was given rather than the function it actually performs. If they had simply called it a reliability and safety device meant to insure that the hammer doesn't ride the bolt back and that the bolt is closed before the weapon can be fired then the BATF would probably insist that every AR-15 should have one.

I think the auto sear hole is enough to get a club Fed outing. I hope the people reading this thread don't see it as a tutorial. I'm going to hide my dog now.

 

[rvb]

The part is perfectly named for the function it performs, releasing the hammer in auto mode. The fact there are other components involved in making it run is irelavant.

A gun MAY run who the auto sear, but by controlling the timing the autosear ensures reliable function. The ATF tech branch, while often corrupt and politically influenced, aren't such idiots the name of a part would confuse them as to its function.

-rvb

 

[rob63]

I never said the name isn't accurate, it simply leads people to think it does more than what it really does. The BATF has long treated it as though it can make a rifle a machine-gun all by itself. There was a time when the BATF frowned upon using an M-16 bolt carrier in an AR-15, but eventually the manufacturers convinced them that it couldn't do anything by itself and BATF now allows it; that alone causes me to question the competence of the technical branch.

 

[Mr Evilwrench]

For the sear itself to "function" as it is intended, it needs the bolt carrier with the longer backside to release it, the notch on the back of the hammer for it to hold onto, and the selector to have that third position so the disconnector gets out of the way, which in turn requires the trigger to have the backside open to give the disconector clearance. I'm sure it was just a coincidence that all but one of the AR15 parts has a bit removed from the corresponding M16 part, but it works out pretty brilliantly. Of course, if you really really want full auto parts, it's not hard to get them, but myself, I'd rather spend the next 10 years out here than in federal pound-you-in-the-ass prison. You don't think they'd send you to club fed for this, do you? Mine are all scrupulously semi now, except for bolt carriers. These guys make almost as much work for us as the IRS. Grumble.