MCFG Pistol Bay Rules

[88E30M50]

Can anyone that shoots at MCFG clarify the rules of the pistol bays as they understand them? While shooting this weekend, a couple of older gentlemen stopped by and let me know that we were not shooting per rules of MCFG in the pistol bays. They were very friendly about it and we modified what we were doing to meet their suggestion but I think that in the end, we were less safe after the change than we were before. Here is what we were doing:

There were several of us shooting and we had two tables with guns set about 2/3 of the way into the bays towards the steel plates. All of our reloading was taking place on the tailgate of my pickup truck at the end of the bay and when someone would shoot, they would load the ammo back from the firing line, walk forward and pick up the gun they were about to shoot. Then they would establish the firing line at whatever point they wanted to shoot at. Sometimes, this was in line with the table that contained the guns, other times, they would advance up a pace or more if shooting at a paper target to as close as about 3 yards. They would then, when finished shooting, drop the mag, close the slide and dry fire towards the berm. They would then lock the slide back, check the chamber and when clear, put the gun back on the table. At no time was anyone allowed to touch a gun if there was a person between them and the gun table. Our standard rule is that nobody touches an uncased firearm behind another person.

Their suggestion was to move the table with the guns forward to the closest point of fire so that nobody would be walking back to the table with a gun in their hand. Their understanding of the rule was that the table represented the bench on the normal firing line and any movement with a gun forward of that table was like someone picking a gun up while on the line and stepping forward of the benches. We moved the table up toward the steel a bit more, but then found ourselves having to pick up a gun and then take a step or two back from the tables before loading and firing. I think it was much safer to step back to the table with a just cleared gun and no ammo as opposed to stepping back from it with a gun that was just picked up and ammo in hand.

The only way to avoid stepping back from the tables with an unloaded pistol is to treat the table as a static line and to shoot from behind the tables in all cases. During the safety briefing, the pistol bays were described as being for shooting is a less static environment such as while moving or from defensive positions behind barrels. The gentleman that conducted the safety briefing was clear in that the firing line in the pistol bays was represented by the shooter furthest forward and that the line was not static, but could move forward or back as long as all shooters respected the same firing line. I think we were in compliance with those rules and that the two gentleman were applying main firing line rules to the pistol bays. I don't see how you can have a non-static firing line using their rules unless you had someone pick the table full of guns up and follow you back and forth as you move.

I'm all for following the rules and want to make sure I understand them accurately. This was our setup at the range (no ammo on the pistol table, all guns pointing towards the berm and slides locked back on semi-autos):



What do other MCFG members do while shooting in a pistol bay?

 

[BravoMike]

I don't think you guys where doing anything wrong, but I'm not certain. I think they were referring to rule 10, but clearly the shooting bays do not have a front or back bench. That is only on the main range.

Here are the rules.

http://www.indyrange.org/media/MCFG_Rules_Revision_FINAL_DRAFT_5_NOV_13.pdf

 

[singlesix]

Our rule book is going to have more pages than Obamacare! IMHO you were following the spirit of the rules. Equating the Main Fire Line to the Bay should have been the first clue the person was off base. You handled it well. My suggestion would be to tell the person if he feels you are doing something wrong than he can write a safety concern form and it can be dealt with at the Board Meeting. Seems you displayed a rare commodity these days .. common sense. NOTE: this is an opinion expressed by a member of MCFG and not official in any way.

Note: MCFG is a Sponsor of INGO and has its own sub-forum where MCFG questions can be posted.

 

[Fishersjohn48]

I've been "corrected" enough for similar behavior that I just don't shoot when there is anyone else there. I know that there are some that will set up barricades and run forward with guns drawn as in USPA shooting and as long as they holster their weapon when moving away from the berm it has been deemed to be safe and allowable. However somehow stepping in front of the table when you are the only person in the bay is somehow deemed unsafe.

My best suggestion is to attend one of the club meetings as I did to get an explanation to your question. The folks that run our club are shooters just like us and want the club to be run safely and fairly.

 

[WebSnyper]

I was in a bay on Saturday and was also going to check out the rules due to something that happened. When I go, I wait in the parking area for a bay, so I can shoot by myself if at all possible. I always wait by my car, outside of the view of the shooters in the bays, so I do not make them feel like they need to rush, etc. I have never approached another shooter in the bay to ask if they are done, or will be soon, etc, as I don't want to impede upon their time in the bay. Others don't always do this and that's fine, but just not my practice. If someone asks if I am ready to leave, I let them know if I am or not, etc.


When I was in there yesterday, I had a person come up, advance in front of the line I was shooting from and from the tables. He uncased a shotgun and proceeded to shoot several rounds without ever saying a word. I just kind of stood there while reloading some mags in amazement. I should have attempted to get his member number, but again, I was just dumbfounded that someone would walk into a bay that someone else was using, never say a word, and proceed to step forward and begin shooting on the plates. He left without saying a word after shooting several rounds on a particular plate.



Here is the section of the rules pertaining to bays and here is the source:

http://www.indyrange.org/media/MCFG_Rules_Revision_FINAL_DRAFT_5_NOV_13.pdf


Rules for the Bays:
31. If more than 1 person desires to use a bay, each bay shall be divided amongst up to four active shooters and the shooters shall all agree on a common firing line.
32. Keep your targets as close to the back berm and as close to the ground as possible without risking impacting the ground.
33. Targets in the bays may be placed in an array similar to Friday Night Steel, but the muzzle must ALWAYS point downrange.
34. No shooting of aerial targets (i.e. no throwing clay pigeons) in the shooting bays.

 

[hps]

I think the way you were shooting, required you to case your weapon BEFORE walking back to your table.

 

[Fishersjohn48]

I think the way you were shooting, required you to case your weapon BEFORE walking back to your table.

That is the heart of the matter and the conclusion that was explained to me. Holster or bag weapon before turning and walking back to table/truck/etc. If you are not facing the berm, the weapon needs to be bagged/cased/holstered.

 

[pudly]

I agree with not taking uncased guns away from the line as a safety measure. But then, there really is little reason to reload your firearm away from the line anyway. Were these tube-fed rifles? All I saw in that picture are mag-fed semiauto handguns. You can load mags anywhere safely- at the line or away from it. Don't move an uncased gun if you don't need to.

There is no rule against (or safety problem with) having ammo or mags at the line.

 

[88E30M50]

There were no tube-fed rifles being shot. All of our mag loading was happening back on the tail gate of my truck, so the only time a mag and pistol were together was when a gun was picked up, the shooter would advance to whatever line they chose (when shooting alone) and then the mag was inserted and gun shot. My understanding was that the pistol bays were for shooting in a more dynamic setting than at the static main range line. I've practiced shooting while moving backwards in the pistol bays and now am wondering if that is against the rules as well.

I've read rule 10 a couple of times through and am still am not seeing any violation. Here is rule 10:

10. No uncased firearms are allowed on the back bench.
a. Do not take an uncased firearm from the back bench to the front bench; bring the cased firearm to the front bench and then open the case with the muzzle pointing down range.
b. Do not take an uncased firearm from the front bench to the back bench; bring the case to the front bench and then insert the unloaded firearm into the case with the muzzle pointing down range.

At no time was an uncased firearm on the back bench (tail gate of the truck where all the ammo was handled with mags, but no firearms were present). No uncased firearms were moved from the back bench to the front bench. All firearms were uncased and re-cased on the front bench with the cases being stowed in the bed of the truck while shooting. All muzzles were pointed down range at all times while uncased. That may have been as close to a violation as we came since the muzzle was generally pointed vertically down when walking back to the bench instead of always being pointed down range. My understanding is that down is good but I'll enforce the rule that the muzzle needs to still point towards the berm. I'll take my GoPro along on the next range trip to review later to make sure the muzzle is always pointing down range.

Thanks for the replys folks. I love shooting at MCFG and really don't want to incur a safety violation because I don't understand the rules as well as I thought I did.

 

[goColt]

Hi Tim,
I’m the Safety Coordinator at MCFG and the “gentleman” (I use the term loosely) that you refer to as having given the safety briefing.

Thanks for bringing up your question about the MCFG rules. I will attempt to answer as best as I can.

Firstly, of course we cannot have rules for every scenario that comes up but following the basic rules of gun safety along with the range and club rules should cover most scenarios. A hard-copy of the range and club rules is a handy thing to have in your range bag. That way you can make sure you are following them and if there is any question, you have it in black-and-white. Of course you still may have disagreements in interpretation and application of the rules, but that is why we have safety concern forms available for members to complete and submit to the Board for review and take action if needed. The advice I always give is, if you are not sure if something is a violation, don’t do it. Then, ask an officer or myself for clarification.

After reading your account of what happened, it would appear you were following the rules in letter and spirit when you originally started shooting prior to you adjusting your shooting procedures.

You are correct in stating that the bays do not have a static firing line in the same manner that the main firing line does. Due to this fact, there is no “front bench” or “back bench” in the same manner as the main firing line. The tables that are in the bays can be used to place guns and gear on in a similar manner as the benches on the main line, however shooting from directly behind the tables is not required as it is on the main line. These tables can be in front of the shooter(s), behind the shooter(s) or even off to the side.

Nowhere in the rules does it state that the tables represent the “front bench” or the “back bench” in the bays. This is what I believe the crux of the misunderstanding by the other members who suggested moving the tables forward and shooting behind them. This is simply not the case for the bays.

One other thing is to clarify that the bays are not for pistol only. They are for shooting all approved firearms and cartridges that you can on the main range except that you cannot shoot aerial targets in the bays.

A good piece of advice that I tell people is to ask: Is what I am about to do a direct violation any of the Four Basic Rules of Firearm Safety or a violation of any MCFG rule? If the answer is “No”, then you will most likely be OK. As I said before, if you are not sure if something is a violation, don’t do it. Ask an officer or myself for clarification. Questions can be directed to me at safety@indyrange.org or put onto a Safety Concern form and placed in the mail-slot in the clubhouse door. I will get back to you as soon as I can.

Because it’s always a good idea to post them, here are the Four Basic Rules of Firearm Safety as well as a link to the most up-to-date MCFG range rules:

Four Basic Rules of Firearm Safety:
1. Treat every gun as if it were loaded.
2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
4. Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

MCFG Indy Range - Shooting Range Rules and Property Rules

Thanks for being a safe member of MCFG and for asking your question about the rules.

 

[88E30M50]

Thanks Chris, I appreciate the reply. I do keep a copy of the rulebook in the range bag, but did not even think to pull it out and go over it with them. Will do next time though.

Tim