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  • mercop

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    Dec 21, 2008
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    As a police officer and much more as a bouncer I have studied how fast the average person becomes flustered when someone raises their voice at them. Over the years I have also done my best to control my own reaction during these situations. In an attempt to explain things I sort confrontations into two types; brewing and flash. Even during a flash encounter, if you were to roll back tape you would see signs that were either misinterpreted or missed completely.

    Brewing confrontations are those that often start small, usually a response to a perceived (often induced by various substances) as disrespect, more than they are part of planned attack or other criminal act. For the person who is not wearing a uniform these often start with “what the **** are you looking at”.

    In my experience the vast majority of situations we are involved will be the brewing variety. Two people cross paths while doing everything from driving to walking down the street. For whatever I saw a lot of these around convenience store and gas pumps where congregate for a few minutes while doing business.

    The truth is that minding your own business is not that easy. All mammals subconsciously turn to face light and nice. The more quiet the background noise and darker it is, the more profound the response. It is usually sound that warns us about approaching danger. Like animals, especially if given the options people run. More so if they can’t see anything to attack to defend themselves. This is why some dogs hate thunder and fireworks. They run and make themselves as small as possible in an attempt to not attract attention from the perceived threat. The key to survival is movement, and anything that limits your movement is a threat to it.

    We are usually far from being left out in the woods. Fleeing is often not an option due to the circumstances we find ourselves in, tied to people, places, and things. These is easily demonstrated during a a simple force on force drill I call “at the pump”. The good guy is at one side of a improvised gas pump, with a vehicle, with another person in the passenger seat or maybe a baby doll in the car to simulate a kid. The bad guy comes over and begins to yell at the good guy. As he approaches you can see the good guy freeze during the thought process of standing his ground or getting in his car to drive away. They will usually stay glued to their car (even if they don’t have anyone with them. If the bad guy draws a weapon they will usually draw theirs and go into a two hand shooting stance. This increases tunnel visions and loss of spacial recognition, including how far away they are from their vehicle. Think about this every time you get gas. Am I consciously practicing the three types of awareness; personal (what are my capabilities this moment, team (are the people with me an asset or liability), and situational (what is going on right now). Is the car between you and the attacker? Do you need to move to prevent a crossfire? Are you even armed? What if you just picked up a rental in a place you cannot carry? What are your other tool options? The list goes on.

    Violent confrontations take place as the same distance conversations do. Makes sense since the brewing variety start with a conversation. I found that as police officer and bouncer (Baltimore punk club & York pub) that being able to control my tone and voice was an asset when dealing with people who were upset. If you talk in a light conversations tone, it causes even angry people to talk lower and calmer. Then a command voice if verbal commands are needed. If you start with the command voice it is hard to go backwards. The truth is that unless you do it day in and day out for a living,if someone raises their voice at you in a addition to entering your personal space you will panic, even if they are not moving fast. It is very easy to overwhelm someone with sound and movement. During a confrontation whoever advances will often be the victor. It is all about making people back peddle. When at someone yelling, their eyes want more information to make a decision so they back peddle. You can see this in may police involved shooting videos. Unfortunately it is natural to moves straight back, especially if you have a two handed grip on your gun. In training and real life this leads to people falling down or over things. Not to mention the cartoonish effect it has on drawing a weapon even from a duty holster as you can see in the video below as the bad guy jumps out with an AR pistol. It occurs at about 00.50 into the video.

    Florida Deputies get ambushed


    You can watch this one at about the 2 minute mark. There is very little chance of you having the room to move around like these officers did. You will either face a gun or contact weapons such as fists. edged, or impact weapon. You can see the tunnel vision come and go as he takes his hand off the gun to wave someone back. Two hands on the gun severely limit your view of the attack and lateral movement.

    Officer allows attacker to get behind him


    Unlike square range training, force on force prepares you for the reality of a real confrontation which can best be described as picking up the clean side of a turd. When the time comes, and for many it will, the best option at conversational distance attacks to be the aggressor and move forward whether armed or not. You are either controlling the attackers time and space or he is controlling yours.
     

    BehindBlueI's

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    Oct 3, 2012
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    What if you move forward and the other person doesn't back down from your monkey dance? If it goes to guns, proximity negates skill. Why would you leave cover to advance?

    If it doesn't go to guns but goes to blows, why advance inside the reactionary gap?

    If you close, can you see as many threat cues? Can you see the facial expressions and the hands? Is it easier to covertly access a knife against someone you are chest to chest with or across the room from?

    Say things go sideways and you end up in a shooting with the other person. A video from the gas station shows you charging them. Who now enjoys the assumption of self defense? Is it easier to justify charging a guy and shooting him or retreating but tripping and no longer being able to escape?

    I'm going to disagree with you. Movement is very context dependent. I've done the bullrush charge on occasion, but for someone out of uniform and without the need to make apprehension I don't think it should be the default reaction. Especially if you don't have a strong hand to hand game, because if you close the distance even with a weapon there's a non-zero chance it becomes an entangled fight.
     

    churchmouse

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    I have always moved forward towards any aggression. It seems to throw them off there bully pulpit and I gain advantage.
    not 100% effective but close.
     

    BehindBlueI's

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    I have always moved forward towards any aggression. It seems to throw them off there bully pulpit and I gain advantage.
    not 100% effective but close.

    Would you recommend it as blanket advice? Since we know each other, pretend I'm the aggressor and any of the females in your household are my target. Would you advise them to charge me, regardless of if I'm visibly armed or not? If I were the aggressor and was visibly armed with a handgun and you had your truck by you for cover, would you charge me?

    I'm guessing not. Both have obvious high risks of negative outcomes.

    Most male on male verbal clashes are posturing, as are many "fights". It can certainly be an advantage to charge, loom, etc. in those scenarios. That said, males engaged in the monkey dance are not every scenario, where whoever can socially dominate the other wins. If it actually goes deadly force, and particularly if I'm armed with a projectile weapon, distance and cover are my friends.
     

    churchmouse

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    Would you recommend it as blanket advice? Since we know each other, pretend I'm the aggressor and any of the females in your household are my target. Would you advise them to charge me, regardless of if I'm visibly armed or not? If I were the aggressor and was visibly armed with a handgun and you had your truck by you for cover, would you charge me?

    I'm guessing not. Both have obvious high risks of negative outcomes.

    Most male on male verbal clashes are posturing, as are many "fights". It can certainly be an advantage to charge, loom, etc. in those scenarios. That said, males engaged in the monkey dance are not every scenario, where whoever can socially dominate the other wins. If it actually goes deadly force, and particularly if I'm armed with a projectile weapon, distance and cover are my friends.
    I. This is something I have done my whole life as I am (was) fairly confident I could weather any punishments that move would bring me and give enough back to either end it positively or force a withdrawal.
    I see your point.
     

    BigRed

    Banned More Than You
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    I used to work with a guy who was constantly working on his "foot work". When doing drills, he would focus on moving his one foor to the other before moving his other foot....all to avoid stumbles in bad situations....it was very smooth, seamless, and quick for him.
     

    Twangbanger

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    The distinction between "brewing" and "flash" seems important.

    Ayoob used to teach that in an unavoidable "flash" type encounter, moving forward and leaning in with everything you got was probably the best option, for a scenario you hope never happens (and you hope your Situational Awareness prevents in the first place). Moving backward and acting like prey rewards initiative, gives the aggressor little to fear and shifts the advantage his direction.

    Where it gets more uncertain, is "everywhere else." Especially the "brewing" type encounter. You are not a Bouncer, Cop, or MMA fighter, and your "job" does not depending on moving forward and "winning the engagement." Situations where avoiding engagement may be a real (or even most likely) possibility. A win means avoiding engagement, you get to go back to your decent life, and "sh_t person" goes back to their sh_t life of looking for someone to get mad at.

    This is an interesting conversation on an important topic & I hope it will move forward.
     

    DoggyDaddy

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    If you talk in a light conversations tone, it causes even angry people to talk lower and calmer.
    Out of that wall of text, this is what I picked up on. I had a buddy that was a pretty good pool player. He would often get accused of hustling when we would go out to bars (he wasn't) back when I was in my 20's. I would usually just sit at a table and watch, but when I saw his shoulders go back and his chest stick out, I knew what was coming, and that's when I'd step in. I'm not a big guy, not by a long stretch, but I stopped a lot of fights from ever getting started by doing just this.
     

    churchmouse

    I still care....Really
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    Out of that wall of text, this is what I picked up on. I had a buddy that was a pretty good pool player. He would often get accused of hustling when we would go out to bars (he wasn't) back when I was in my 20's. I would usually just sit at a table and watch, but when I saw his shoulders go back and his chest stick out, I knew what was coming, and that's when I'd step in. I'm not a big guy, not by a long stretch, but I stopped a lot of fights from ever getting started by doing just this.
    Body language. A definite tell.
     

    DoggyDaddy

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    Body language. A definite tell.
    Yep. It was my buddy that was throwing his shoulders back and sticking out his chest, btw. He's not with us anymore. I miss him. We became best friends almost immediately after we met. If he'd have been a good looking woman instead of a dude, I probably would've married him. :lmfao:
     

    Twangbanger

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    Oct 9, 2010
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    Yep. It was my buddy that was throwing his shoulders back and sticking out his chest, btw. He's not with us anymore. I miss him. We became best friends almost immediately after we met. If he'd have been a good looking woman instead of a dude, I probably would've married him. :lmfao:
    :chest:
     

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