My buddy's tank for sale... what's the ATF registered part?

[Hop]

I haven't bumped my "tank for sale" ad in the classifieds for a while. I mentioned it to someone at the Indy1500 & the question came up that's it's a "destructive device" and might not be allowed in Indiana. The tank comes with 10 live shells. Are those what get registered with ATF as DD or is it the gun on the tank?

I guess I could call my buddy Steve who is selling the tank but he's so busy answering calls about it that he's hard to reach.

Does anyone know for sure?

I could swear I knew someone with a mortar but what is registered as the DD? The shells or the launcher?

 

[eldirector]

Both, I think. Are the shells explosive?

Indiana Code 2015 - Indiana General Assembly, 2015 Session

IC 35-47.5-2-4
"Destructive device"
Sec. 4. (a) "Destructive device" means:
(1) an explosive, incendiary, or overpressure device that is
configured as a:
(A) bomb;
(B) grenade;
(C) rocket with a propellant charge of more than four (4)
ounces;
(D) missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more
than one-quarter (1/4) ounce;
(E) mine;
(F) Molotov cocktail; or
(G) device that is substantially similar to an item described
in clauses (A) through (F);
(2) a type of weapon that may be readily converted to expel a
projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant
through a barrel that has a bore diameter of more than one-half
(1/2) inch; or
(3) a combination of parts designed or intended for use in the
conversion of a device into a destructive device.
(b) The term does not include the following:
(1) A pistol, rifle, shotgun, or weapon suitable for sporting or
personal safety purposes or ammunition.
(2) A device that is neither designed nor redesigned for use as
a weapon.
(3) A device that, although originally designed for use as a
weapon, is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line
throwing, safety, or similar device.
(4) A surplus military ordnance sold, loaned, or given by
authority of the appropriate official of the United States
Department of Defense.
As added by P.L.123-2002, SEC.50.

So, appears that the firing mechanism in the turret, and then the live ordinance, are both "destructive devices". I recall seeing many tank cannons having their barrels welded closed and rendered in-op when put on display.

 

[SSGSAD]

Both, I think. Are the shells explosive?

Indiana Code 2015 - Indiana General Assembly, 2015 Session


So, appears that the firing mechanism in the turret, and then the live ordinance, are both "destructive devices". I recall seeing many tank cannons having their barrels welded closed and rendered in-op when put on display.

YES, or the chamber is cut, in some way .....

 

[Beowulf]

If the live shells are firing solid shot, and not explosive rounds, I don't think the shells fall under the specification of a DD (I might be wrong about that). The gun definitely is a DD though.

 

[amafrank]

If the gun is over .50 cal, intact and fireable the gun is a DD and needs to be registered. If the barrel is plugged permanently, cut or has a bore diameter hole in it with bars across the bore its not a DD anymore. DDs are like SBR's. If you don't have a barrel you don't have a DD.
The breech ring is considered to be the receiver and if its been cut than even with a barrel its not a DD. An uncut breechring is just like any other receiver however....if it crosses state lines it has to go to an FFL and someone has to do paperwork. It transfers just like an AR or AK receiver unless the gun is a registered DD.

As for the rest of the tank there is nothing that needs to be registered. Chieftains have a bag charge gun.....ie it has no cartridge case. The tanks that were shipped to the US did not have the obturator which is that part that seals the breech. The guns are not safe to shoot without it so even an intact breech means very little as far as shooting goes.

The breech ring is very heavy in most Tanks and is a part required for safety as it ties the barrel to the recuperator and damper so it won't slide in and out of the cradle. It also balances the weight of the barrel hanging out the front so that one guy can operate the elevation mechanism with one hand. Without the breech ring you need a crane to elevate or depress the barrel. Without the breech ring you need to stay clear of the rear of the barrel when the tank is moving. Climb a small grade and the barrel can slide back til it hits the turret ring. Weighing a couple thousand pounds it can pretty much ruin your day if you're in between the barrel and the turret ring....
Because of this many tank collectors weld the cut breech ring back together in order to tie all the parts up for safety. Some weld the breech block in and others don't. ATF has previously said nothing about this because courts don't like it when govt agencies demand unsafe practices.....not that logic will ever really prevail.

As noted solid shot is not a DD. The guns over .50 cal have to be registered but only ammo with more than 1/4 oz of explosive in it does. Indiana does have a prohibition on explosive DD's so you can't legally transfer live grenades or explosive shells into the state. You can fire the solid ones and cannons are legal DD's in Indiana.

In any case that is the situation as I see it.....standing next to a chieftain with a big hole in the side of the barrel and a few other tanks as well.....lotsa tanks around here and there.

Frank