Neck Sizing VS Full Length Resizing

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  • bigedp51

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    Full Length Resizing vs Neck Resizing

    Neck Resizing (NK) vs. Full Length (FL) Resizing

    The main goal for most reloaders is to make the most accurate handloads possible, and that often leads shooters to see how benchrest shooters are reloading. After all, nobody gets better accuracy than a good benchrest shooter. One question for reloaders is deciding whether to Neck Size (NK) or Full Length (FL) resize their cases. I used to neck size (decades ago), but I now prefer to FL resize all rifle calibers. Most benchrest shooters today use FL dies, because when full length resizing is done accurately . . . . there are no advantages to neck sizing.

    Neck sizing used to be popular among target and varmint shooters because it reduced chamber clearance and that extends case life by not over-working the brass. Many shooters also figured that the tighter their loads fit the chamber – the more accurate they'll shoot. There's more to this story. Shooters that neck size eventually need to bump their case shoulder back to ensure that their rounds will chamber reliably. Keep in mind that .001" is one third the thickness of a human hair, and having some clearance is an advantage.

    Reloading equipment (and techniques) evolve as technology improves. Today most benchrest shooters use expensive custom FL resizing dies made specifically for their chamber. This allows them to make handloads that ALWAYS fit perfectly. Most shooters don’t want to spend that kind of money on a set of custom dies, and actually it’s not necessary.

    Shooters that neck size know that their handloads will soon require a bit more force to close the bolt, and that's not good. You should NEVER be able to "feel" handloads chamber - not even a little bit. Neck sized cases have absolutely no chamber clearance at the shoulder. When they get tight, that shows they are obviously not consistently being returned to the same size. Another consideration for our handloads is to make them with near zero case run-out. However, after "forcing" a tight round into the chamber, it becomes anything but concentric. Why would you want to occasionally bump the shoulder just to make some cases fit better?

    On the other hand, full length resizing must be done accurately if it's going to make better handloads. It's best to bump the shoulder -.001" to -.002" at the most. This requires measuring the clearance (at the shoulder) that YOUR handloads have in YOUR particular chamber. This is very easy to measure.

    A properly used FL die bumps the shoulder, sizes the neck, and slightly resizes the "tapered" body while your case is fully supported - perfectly concentric in one die. When full length resizing is done properly, it delivers the very best accuracy, improved case life, and reliable chambering. So . . . . how can you resize accurately with an ordinary full length resizing die?

    Actual case measurements alone are worthless unless you can also measure your particular chamber at the shoulder. Accurate full length resizing means having - .001” to - .002” clearance at the shoulder (and no more). This requires "measuring" the clearance that YOUR handloads have in YOUR particular rifle. Then you can set your FL resizing die to "accurately" bump your case shoulder just like expensive custom benchrest dies. Your FL die can also resize the neck while the case is completely supported (and aligned) inside one die, and in one operation. Case run-out is reduced, accuracy is improved, and your handloads will always chamber with a perfect fit.


     

    shibumiseeker

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    near Bedford on a whole lot of land.
    BigEd:

    I won't dispute the advantages you and others have posted. What I will dispute is the usefulness to the novice. Reading through this thread and the inexperienced reloader will get the feeling there's no way they can make accurate ammo without following every step and understanding every detail. This simply is not the case.

    The precision shooter needs to work on, in roughly this order:

    Their shooting skills - does no good to have a .4moa gun/ammo combo if the shooter is at best a 2moa shooter.

    A quality gun/optic

    Ammo that is tuned to that gun. This is further broken down to, in order, bullet selection, powder, primer, and brass.

    Ammo manufacturing is a fascinating topic that many of us delve into because we are fascinated by it, but the truth is that perfectly fine and precise ammo can be turned out with very little attention to the brass prep. It's only when squeezing out that last tiny bit of accuracy that brass prep makes a difference, and 99.99% of shooters will never be good enough and have good enough gear to ever notice the difference.
     

    bigedp51

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    The best part about reloading is the person pulling the press handle decides how its done.

    And the vast majority of competitive shooters full length resize their cases.

    I prefer Forster full length benchrest dies with their high mounted floating expander because they produce very concentric cases with very little neck runout. The Forster die holds and centers the case neck in the die when the expander enters the case neck. Meaning the expander can not pull the neck off center and induce neck runout.

    Y7Iyv8o.jpg


    fo·rum
    ˈfôrəm/
    noun
    1.noun: forum; plural noun: forums; plural noun: fora
    a place, meeting, or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged.

    And when a few people try and dominate a forum and stifle any debate and methods you cripple the forum.

    Does a new reloader need the gauges I have......NO

    Because when you are standing on your hind legs shooting at a running deer with your adrenalin pumping all the case prep in the world doesn't matter.

    But there are various levels of reloading and not everyone is just starting and just needs "basic" information.

    When I first started reloading the only gauge I had was a plastic Lyman vernier caliper. "BUT" I could take my ammo to work and have our machinist who shot in benchrest competition check my cases for bullet runout. And my point being if you want to make better ammunition you need gauges to check if you are doing something wrong.

    If you do not have gauges and are a limited budget then buy Lee full length dies like pictured below. The biggest cause of neck runout is if the expander is locked down off center inducing neck runout. The lee die decapper clamp will lock the expander down centered with on average .003 or less neck runout. And I have seen other reloaders with over .020 neck runout simply because the expander was locked down off center.

    QC9xK5D.jpg


    Bottom line, when you have a select "few" handing out information you are in a stagnating cloistered environment that cripples learning.
     

    bwframe

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    Burl,

    The TL;DR version of all of this:

    FL size for your semi-autos.
    Neck size for your brass used in a specific bolt gun.

    IF your brass is precious AND you need to squeeze every bit of life out of them AND every last tenth of MOA accuracy, then you already have learned way, way more than the usefulness of the above advice.

    If you know to the ten thousandth of an inch your chamber spec and exactly how much runout or variance of shoulder angle or whatever else it has, THEN you don't need to ask the question because you will already have an opinion on what is best for YOU and YOUR GUN. Otherwise, don't overthink it.

    Good to hear from you again sir.

    Thanks to everyone for the advice. :ingo:
     

    natdscott

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    Thanks to everyone for the advice. :ingo:
    Obviously there are some strong opinions here, but frankly, at the end of it, the rifle itself is the only valid judge of the character of your load.

    Have fun and make safe decisions.

    -Nate
     
    Last edited:

    Broom_jm

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    For anyone interested in having a little fun and learning something for themselves, do this simple test:

    1) Remove the decapping pin/expander button from your full-length sizing die.
    2) Run 5 pieces of brass as far into the die as you can, meaning camming over or very nearly so, with your press.
    3) Measure the neck OD and ID, to the best of your ability. Note those numbers down somewhere.
    4) Size the same 5 pieces of brass in the same die, with the pin/expander installed.
    5) Measure the neck OD and ID again, to the best of your ability. Note those numbers and compare them to what you got previously.

    Now you understand why neck-sizing, or using a fully custom FL sizing die that fits your custom chamber, results in better case life.
     

    bigedp51

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    We live in a plus an minus manufacturing world and chambers and dies vary in size, meaning in diameter and headspace length.

    Look at the link below and how much the neck diameter varies on the dies. Redding tells you with their bushing dies if you do not neck turn to size the case neck .004 smaller than bullet diameter and use the expander included with their bushing dies.

    Below is a Lyman .223 type "M" expander that many reloaders use for their AR15 rifles. And the expander is .003 smaller than bullet diameter for more bullet grip, and the .226 step on the expander is to improve straight in line seating and reduce bullet runout.

    ohIUcpd.png


    And at the Whidden custom die website they sell expander kits with five expanders from bullet diameter to .004 under bullet diameter. Meaning there are a few ways to control bullet grip and how much you work the brass.

    Bottom line Forster is the only die manufacture that will hone their full length dies neck to your desired diameter "if needed". I have at least five Forster full length dies and didn't need to have any of them honed. And you have no control over how much the neck expands in a off the shelf factory rifle with a SAAMI chamber. Meaning the neck expands far more when fired than your expander opens up the neck when sizing.

    Are Your Sizing Dies Overworking Your Rifle Brass?


    Are Your Sizing Dies Overworking Your Rifle Brass? - MassReloading
     

    bigedp51

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    Now you understand why neck-sizing, or using a fully custom FL sizing die that fits your custom chamber, results in better case life.

    Bah Humbug!

    1. What makes you think a standard neck sizing die reduces the neck diameter less than a full length die.
    2. A neck sized case and a full length resized case will have split necks when the brass is worked and not annealed.
    3. And a full length resized case does not split vertically along its length like a case neck. And if the case shoulder is pushed back too far every time it is sized this causes a case head separation around its circumference.
    4. And how many reloaders in this forum have custom rifles with tight chambers.

    The only difference between a neck sizing die and a full length die is the neck sizing die does not size the body of the case. And this is why neck sizing dies produce more neck runout, because the neck sizing die does not fully support the case body in alignment with the case neck. Meaning the most concentric cases are made with a full length die and why competitive shooters are now using full length dies.

    Merry Christmas and have a full length resized New Year. :):
     
    Last edited:

    natdscott

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    Bottom line Forster is the only die manufacture that will hone their full length dies neck to your desired diameter "if needed".

    That is completely untrue.

    Hornady is happy to, Redding will (at a big price and wait), and I know John Whidden will make happen anything you want out of a die.

    -Nate
     

    bigedp51

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    That is completely untrue.

    Hornady is happy to, Redding will (at a big price and wait), and I know John Whidden will make happen anything you want out of a die.

    -Nate

    Forster will hone the necks of their dies for $12.00 plus shipping, what does Hornady, Redding and Whidden charge?

    [h=3]CUSTOM NECK HONING OF FORSTER FULL LENGTH SIZING or NECK SIZING DIE[/h] We custom hone the inside neck diameter by using a diamond stoning process. We enlarge the inside diameter to your specification to prevent over-sizing of the case neck due to thick neck walls. You may require this service for multiple reasons: 1) If you use some brands of brass cases which have thicker neck walls. 2) If you do not intend to outside neck turn case necks that have thickened after repeated firings. Please specify desired inside neck diameter. Note: 1) No more than .008″ stock removal from your existing die neck diameter is possible. 2) Honing is done in increments of one half thousandth of an inch (.0005″), meaning that your specified inside diameter must be either.XXX0″ or .XXX5″.
    $12.00 plus actual return shipping cost & insurance Please allow 1-3 weeks.
     

    natdscott

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    Redding was about 11tybillion. I want to say pushing $300 for a custom die.

    Hornady is pretty reasonable, but I don't use their dies, so I can't recall.

    If you asked John, or his shop super Wiley, they'd tell you what you can know. Trust me, I've been around that circle with a 223 seating die.

    But I've had to call to know. Redding, for example, is extremely personable and very capable, yet they carry a bit of an elitist reputation because of the price of their stuff.
     

    Broom_jm

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    Bah Humbug!

    1. What makes you think a standard neck sizing die reduces the neck diameter less than a full length die.
    2. A neck sized case and a full length resized case will have split necks when the brass is worked and not annealed.
    3. And a full length resized case does not split vertically along its length like a case neck. And if the case shoulder is pushed back too far every time it is sized this causes a case head separation around its circumference.
    4. And how many reloaders in this forum have custom rifles with tight chambers.

    The only difference between a neck sizing die and a full length die is the neck sizing die does not size the body of the case. And this is why neck sizing dies produce more neck runout, because the neck sizing die does not fully support the case body in alignment with the case neck. Meaning the most concentric cases are made with a full length die and why competitive shooters are now using full length dies.

    Merry Christmas and have a full length resized New Year. :):

    Did you even think about what I posted before you responded, Ed? Sure doesn't seem that way, based on your responses, because they have nothing to do with what I was saying.

    You see cases failing just forward of the web, where mine fail (eventually) with neck splits. You know why that is.

    Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. May your runout be zero and your case life at least double digits! :buddies:
     
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