Observations

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  • Coach

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    Some observations about my shooting experiences from the last week


    On August 16th I shot the Area 5 match in Barry, IL. This was a large USPSA competition that required 317 rounds to complete. On August 23rd I completed a Vehicle Tactics course at Sand Burr Ranch in Rochester, In. Henk Iverson was the lead instructor and I estimate that I shot 350 rounds through my gun.

    I shot the Area 5 match in one day, in oppressive heat, and in a bug infested environment. I found ticks in places that made me uncomfortable. But I did not have to kneel or go prone as far as shooting positions.

    The Vehicle Tactics course was mild for temperature and bugs were not noticeable once we started and no ticks were found later. However, my legs are raw from mid thigh down from “rolling” out of cars and using them for concealment.

    Out of 317 rounds fired at Area 5 in a very difficult match I had five misses and I shot one no shoot target or hostage. I was not real happy with this lack of accuracy but it is what it is. Everything in USPSA is on the clock and most of my times were good. The pressure of competition and the clock were present. Most targets were paper, some were steel and some were moving targets that opened and closed or swung from side to side. Some of these swingers were incredibly fast. Distances ranged from three yards to 30 yards with most in the 7 to 15 yard range.

    Out of the 350 or so rounds fired today I know of one miss on steel, and it was fired two handed but with the gun in my weak hand. I may have had one other miss on steel but no more than that and I really think it was only one. The targets in this class were either steel targets roughly 8x10 inches or a small rectangular box situated on a high center chest area of a paper target. The target on paper was considerably smaller than the steel target, probably less than half as big. I never hit outside of this box that I can recall.

    At Area 5 I shot my custom Limited gun from Brazos Custom and it ran 100%. Not a single problem mechanically. I cannot complain about the function of this gun at this match.

    At the Vehicle tactics class I shot a 1911 Colt 1991A1 which has had some work but not an extensive amount. I had one malfunction when it failed to go into battery once. There was an incredible amount of dirt and sand on the gun, mags and my hands. I was not surprised by the malfunction but rather that only one malfunction occurred. I was pleased with the overall performance.

    After spending the day on the range at Area 5 in extreme heat, battling the hills of PASA Park I was far more tired than I am tonight.

    After rolling out of a Honda Civic and an Eagle Talon dozens of times and scrambling around on all fours I am far more beat up and raw than I was after Area 5.

    USPSA is a game, and I do it primarily because it is fun and I like to compete against others. I finished 24th out of 123 shooters in the Limited Division. Respectable but not what I was hoping for to be honest.

    The Vehicle Training course was touted repeatedly as being real world and gun fighting and not competition, and I believe it. I feel like I more than held my own against the rest of the class. I did not find the shooting to be all that difficult, but I did not have someone shooting at me even with simunitions. Won't really know until the moment of truth presents itself.

    At Area 5 I shot my way, and with the technique that I think is best.

    At the class I was asked to change my grip, and I tried with limited success to do that. The change in grip was to correct a flaw in shooting that is common, and I like to think I have trained and gotten past that flaw. My hits on paper today said so.

    At Area 5 I was surrounded by shooters playing a game and concentrating on their skills and improving those skills.

    At Area 5 all reloads were done as speed reloads. Meaning not retention of magazines.

    In the class there was never a mention of retaining a magazine during a reload, and in fact at times empty guns were left on the ground in favor or ones with rounds in them.

    In competition the 180 degree world is sacred for the sake of safety.

    Today in class the world was 360 and yet safety did not go out the window. There was no sabrina techinque in this class.

    At the class I was surrounded by people wanting to build their skills and preparing to persevere in a gunfight that they did not start. Both are worthy goals. Today at the class I repeatedly heard about the short comings of competition and how it is not realistic. I expected that and was not offended in the least. I don’t agree with much of what I heard in that regard but I was not surprised. This competition guy who is well past his physical prime kept up today in the real training world, which suggests to me that there may be some overlap between the two worlds.

    In summation it was two vastly different experiences in the shooting world, but I am very glad that I did both. They were in many different, but yet they were both about shooting. Henk Iverson and Frank Sharpe are very good instructors and I am glad I have trained with them both. USPSA is a fun game that build skills such as shooting fast and accurately.
     
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    riverman67

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    great post! this should be a sticky.
    I agree with your observations. I don't have a bunch of time to go to defensive classes but I take as many as I can. I started shooting competition because It takes place locally and on a reliable schedule. I manage to make it to 2-3 matches a month. I also work in 1-2 practice sessions a month. This amount of shooting under simulated pressure has been very beneficial to my gun handling skills over the last few years.
    I am still not as accurate as I would like to be at speed but I am at least working on it. I think that any time that a person is shooting for a score it inspires them to push their limits , as I did at Area 5, I didnt fair all that well. I had way to many misses but I learned what I need to work on,had a great time with some of the nicest people around and more importantly, I want to improve. Competition is mostly about the shooting and solving the problem in front of you in the best way possible. defensive training , in my experience, is also about the shooting but delves more into when to not shoot and how to not get shot . They both have their place and the overlap is the shooting and knowing that you can make that shot when you have to.
     

    Glock21

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    I didn't see you shoot the match, Coach, but I saw you working your butt off at the vehicle course! Outstanding job on your part! :rockwoot:
     

    Fishersjohn48

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    Great post and thanks for your observations. I have a question though. You mentioned "Sabrina Technique". What is that?

    BTW the only thing that google found was a synchronized swimming video?????
     

    rvb

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    The change in grip was to correct a flaw in shooting that is common, and I like to think I have trained and gotten past that flaw. My hits on paper today said so.

    Care to elaborate on your grip flaw?
    Will you be adopting the change, or experiementing further?​
    Are you saying you had such good hits thanks to the new grip, or because you've adapted to your old?


    Today at the class I repeatedly heard about the short comings of competition and how it is not realistic. I expected that and was not offended in the least. I don’t agree with much of what I heard

    Did your experience in competition hinder you in any way, eg bad habits habits that hindered your ability to defend yourself?​

    -rvb​
     

    riverman67

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    Great post and thanks for your observations. I have a question though. You mentioned "Sabrina Technique". What is that?

    BTW the only thing that google found was a synchronized swimming video?????

    watch an old episode of charlie's angels and make note of how "Sabrina " grips her revolver in the opening.

    it's sometimes called the teacup grip
     

    obijohn

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    Just to elaborate on the grip. The intention of the grip, which varied from "our" grip in that the support thumb was held high, is to overcome the tendency of some (ie glock shooters) to shoot low and left. The grip helped with the low adjustment and the trigger finger placement with the push on the gun causing the left drift in shot placement. Henk has been training with a just deployed SF group and this grip helped with their transition to the glock.

    A side benefit of the high shooting thumb is the rough index that allows a shooter "if i see my thumb on his chest, i can hit him..." (paraphrase)

    I know that Henk, or Coach, may be able to afford a more accurate explanation, but this should give you the general idea.

    For now, ACT will likely stick with our current grip, but will experiment with this adaption.

    As to competition "bad habits"...I think not, just the opposite. The nature of our sport helps us to think through and be adaptable to changing conditions. For me, this helped yesterday, and in the past, adapt to what was expected of participants. Granted, it has been some time since USPSA/IPSC has been as athletic, but those in the class that i know shoot action competition were able to "get it" quickly and accurately.

    Just my thoughts, take it for what it's worth.





    QUOTE=rvb;1972455]
    Care to elaborate on your grip flaw?
    Will you be adopting the change, or experiementing further?​
    Are you saying you had such good hits thanks to the new grip, or because you've adapted to your old?




    Did your experience in competition hinder you in any way, eg bad habits habits that hindered your ability to defend yourself?​

    -rvb​
    [/QUOTE]
     
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    bigcraig

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    I gave, Henks, grip style a try at the start of the class during the "warm-up" portion. And while I can see how it is a viable style, I found it uncomfortable, mostly due to it just being different than what I am use to. When I went back to my "normal" grip my shots got back on target, I may have missed the steel targets twice, but not by much. (I was shooting quickly and pushing myself.) My shots on paper were all in the COM area easily, both two handed, strong handed only and weak handed only. (Weak hand is something I need more work at, but on the day of the class I actually did well.)

    All that said, it was a great class.

    Some small, maybe a slight bit humorus, observations.

    1) Seat belts can get you killed!
    2) Big folks shouldn't drive compact cars.
    3) Things break, like holsters, when your trying to quickly crawl across the console of a car. Thus leaving you gunless once concealment has been attained. (Apparently the look on my face was priceless, when I went to draw my gun and it was not there.) I drew my knife, because, well, what else could I do. lol
    4) Having a wacky South African threaten to stab you in the arse with a knife if you didn't get out of the car fast enough, is a GREAT MOTIVATIONAL TECHNIQUE! (I returned home with no stab wounds to my posterior.)
    5) Always bring spare gear to a, Henk Iverson, class. Things break, work thru it and get back in the fight. (I have trained with, Henk, before. I brought extra guns and gear.)
    6) My Glock performed perfectly.
     

    Jackson

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    I was in attendance for this vehicle tactics course and I have participated in a couple USPSA competitions. I have some thoughts on the subject:

    Everything depends on your approach and your attitude. Competition shooting is great for building marksmanship and gunhandling skills. It is a good environment to push yourself, add some pressure, work problems and run drills thought up and set up by someone else. All of these things have direct or indirect application to fighting. It is not training to fight and I don't believe it is a substitute for instruction in fighting/self defense (if fighting and self defense is your primary interest in keeping a gun.) It can be a good supplement to work specific skills applicable to fighting, if it is approached with that aim in mind.

    On the other hand, one of the competitions I attended did not seem conducive at all to working some of the ancillary skills I wanted to work. For example: I run from concealment in competition, I stop and scan when I complete a course of fire, I have been known to eject live rounds on the ground during re-loads, and I pretend to re-load my gun before I reholster. Most of these things were discouraged by the RO running the timer in my group because they took up too much time. He specifically asked me not to do these things so I wouldn't waste time for the group. That's fine, it's his range and it's their competition. But it did make the competition less enjoyable and less satisfying for me. It certainly makes me less likely to come back and compete again.

    I also think that you can train yourself to perform sub-optimal actions habitually. Some things commonly done in competition are not necessarily the best course of action in a real world gun fight. I would rather compete like I intend to fight than fight like I would compete.

    Thoughts on the grip:

    I have attended courses with several instructors. I think I've been taught 4 distinct methods of gripping the pistol. The thumb up grip shown to us by Henk involved keeping the off hand thumb vertical, perpendicular to the slide, and primary thumb down in contact with the off hand. This grip, according to Henk, eliminates the problem of shooting low and left. The major difference I notice between this and the "thumbs forward" grip of many competition shooters is that it rotates the wrist, changes the tension in the forearm, and direction of force the grip has on the gun. The action of putting the thumb up rotates the hand and forearm against the side of the gun giving you some lateral pressure in to the gun. Henk also advocates sticking more finger in to the gun and pressing the trigger closer to the first joint than the tip of the finger. He says this should cause the shooter to pull the trigger straight back to the rear.

    I think all of this is a way of correcting symptoms of poor trigger management without correcting the problem of poor trigger management. If you have good trigger control and good sight alignment, you will hit the target. If you're shooting low and left, you are not managing your trigger and that is what you need to work. Adopting a different grip may improve accuracy for a short period while the grip is perfect and you're focusing on the problem, but it doesn't solve the root issue, and accuracy problems are likely to pop up again.
     
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    riverman67

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    I was in attendance for this vehicle tactics course and I have participated in a couple USPSA competitions. I have some thoughts on the subject:

    Everything depends on your approach and your attitude. Competition shooting is great for building marksmanship and gunhandling skills. It is a good environment to push yourself, add some pressure, work problems and run drills thought up and set up by someone else. All of these things have direct or indirect application to fighting. It is not training to fight and I don't believe it is a substitute for instruction in fighting/self defense (if fighting and self defense is your primary interest in keeping a gun.) It can be a good supplement to work specific skills applicable to fighting, if it is approached with that aim in mind.

    On the other hand, one of the competitions I attended did not seem conducive at all to working some of the ancillary skills I wanted to work. For example: I run from concealment in competition, I stop and scan when I complete a course of fire, I have been known to eject live rounds on the ground during re-loads, and I pretend to re-load my gun before I reholster. Most of these things were discouraged by the RO running the timer in my group because they took up too much time. He specifically asked me not to do these things so I wouldn't waste time for the group. That's fine, it's his range and it's their competition. But it did make the competition less enjoyable and less satisfying for me. It certainly makes me less likely to come back and compete again.

    I also think that you can train yourself to perfirn sub-optimal actions habitually. Some things commonly done in competition are not necessarily the best course of action in a real world gun fight. I would rather compete like I intend to fight than fight like I would compete.

    Thoughts on the grip:

    I have attended courses with several instructors. I think I've been taught 4 distint methods of gripping the pistol. The thumb up grip shown to us by Henk involved keeping the off hand thumb vertical, perpendicular to the slide, and primary thumb down in contact with the off hand. This grip, according to Henk, eliminates the problem of shooting low and left. The major difference I notice between this and the "thumbs forward" grip of many competition shooters is that it rotates the wrist, changes the tension in the forearm, and direction of force the grip has on the gun. The action of putting the thumb up rotates the hand and forearm against the side of the gun giving you some lateral pressure in to the gun. Henk also advocates sticking more finger in to the gun and pressing the trigger closer to the first joint than the tip of the finger. He says this should cause the shooter to pull the trigger straight back to the rear.

    I think all of this is a way of correcting symptoms of poor trigger management without correcting the problem of poor trigger management. If you have good trigger control and good sight alignment, you will hit the target. If you're shooting low and left, you are not managing your trigger and that is what you need to work. Adopting a different grip may improve accuracy for a short period while the grip is perfect and you're focusing on the problem, but it doesn't solve the root issue, and accuracy problems are likely to pop up again.

    As a USPSA RO I am sorry that you had this experience. None of these things are disallowed by our rule book and you should have been allowed to complete the course of fire as you saw fit, as long as you followed the rules of the course of fire I wouldn't even have commented.
     

    Jackson

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    As a USPSA RO I am sorry that you had this experience. None of these things are disallowed by our rule book and you should have been allowed to complete the course of fire as you saw fit, as long as you followed the rules of the course of fire I wouldn't even have commented.

    Well, he did not order me not to do them. He just asked and I complied to some degree. I will admit, it did annoy me. I have only attended 2 USPSA matches. At the other, my methods were better received. I just take a different approach to it than most of the competitors there. They play the game against each other. I was trying to use the environment and the courses of fire to judge my own performance and to practice certain skills. And it's pretty handy to have someone else set up the range and hold the timer for you all day. :-)
     

    Coach

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    I didn't see you shoot the match, Coach, but I saw you working your butt off at the vehicle course! Outstanding job on your part! :rockwoot:

    Frank,
    Your force on force class that I participated in was great. The class you put together was great yesterday. I learned plenty both times. Looking forward to the next time. Area 5 and the Vehicle class was apples to oranges but they were both good.

    Shooting like life is a journey and I don't think we will ever arrive.

    My point was I have had a great week or so of shooting.
     

    Coach

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    Care to elaborate on your grip flaw?​


    Will you be adopting the change, or experiementing further?​
    Are you saying you had such good hits thanks to the new grip, or because you've adapted to your old?




    Did your experience in competition hinder you in any way, eg bad habits habits that hindered your ability to defend yourself?​


    -rvb​

    I would like to think I do not have a flaw in my grip. Henk was promoting keeping the weak hand thumb up to correct hits that are low and left. He talked about scores for SF qualifications going up by using this technique. I agree with what Jackson said later in this thread that it is treating a symptom rather than correcting the real problem. I have already discussed this very idea with a couple of other folks.

    But if the goal is to get the job done and the thumb up works en mass for SF soldiers then there is no arguing with success.

    A little more finger on the trigger was also recommended for Henk and I know this can fix a lot of low left issues.


    I tried the new grip because I was in a class to learn and in that enviroment we should all be open minded. I don't need it.

    No my ability to defend myself is not hindered by participation in competition. I think the opposite is true. Henk made the point several times that we never rise to the occasion in shooting for real but that we default to what we know. I think shooting fast and accurately is going to be a great benefit if the chips are ever down.


    Jackson:
    If that RO was at WVPPS don't let that hinder you from coming back. I can make sure that it won't be a problem in the future. There is nothing wrong with you approach to competition.
     

    rhino

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    On the other hand, one of the competitions I attended did not seem conducive at all to working some of the ancillary skills I wanted to work. For example: I run from concealment in competition, I stop and scan when I complete a course of fire, I have been known to eject live rounds on the ground during re-loads, and I pretend to re-load my gun before I reholster. Most of these things were discouraged by the RO running the timer in my group because they took up too much time. He specifically asked me not to do these things so I wouldn't waste time for the group. That's fine, it's his range and it's their competition. But it did make the competition less enjoyable and less satisfying for me. It certainly makes me less likely to come back and compete again.

    Jackson:

    First of all, excellent post.

    Second, I apologize on behalf of the rest of us for what happened to you at that match (I think we discussed it once before). In the future, get on my squad. You're welcome to shoot with me any time and I will endeavor to make sure you're allowed to shoot your way within the actual rules and not some ROs preferences. For what it's worth, I don't eject that live round (although now I'm inclined to believe it's a good idea), but I do stop, pull back to my ready position and scan the area, and take a deep breath before I commence the obligatory unload/show clear routine. Even in competition there is no prize for fastest reholstering!

    Finally, I continue to be impressed by the progress that you and young Jason have made. You've both been working hard and it shows.
     

    Jackson

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    Finally, I continue to be impressed by the progress that you and young Jason have made. You've both been working hard and it shows.

    Progress in some areas. In others I think I've regressed. But I think that may be part of the process of improving. Sometimes you hit a snag and have to move backwords and re-work some things in order to make gains.

    Thank you for the kind words. We both enjoy shooting with you and the ACT crew when we have the opportunity.
     
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