? on "firearm" (not pistol, not rifle)

[throttletony]

Hi all - I figured this would be the best place to post my question, since it deals with potentially "NFA items," or near "NFA items"
In a recent thread, https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/long-guns/387666-building-ar-pistol.html some of these ideas came up.

I have an 300BLK AR pistol with a 10.5" barrel and a midwest industries buffer tube (slightly longer than standard carbine tube). The tube is bare.
My total length in 26.5" without any muzzle device. As I understand it, this lets me treat the (originally intended) AR pistol as a "firearm" because it's over 26" total, but still has a barrel under 16" (on the web there are multiple letters about similar setups in AR platform, old Thompson guns, etc). Looking at it as a "firearm" over 26" would allow me to put on a front vertical grip. It seems that the real difference for this size is putting a stock on it (SBR) or not ("firearm"/pistol).
I don't plan to put any type of stock onto it, not even the SB15 or similar after the dumb revised ATF opinion letter. But, this has me thinking about any classifiable differences between the categories of "pistol," "firearm," and "rifle" WITHOUT becoming an NFA item like an SBR.

So, my questions:
1) Can I take advantage of this as both a "pistol" and a "firearm"? For example, can I hunt during handgun season (assuming it meets whichever state's caliber minimums), AND can have a vertical front grip on it while hunting, for example?

2) hypothetically, what if I were to attach something like the SB15 brace and shoulder it? If I understand the ATF opinion letter, it would reconstitute/construct a handgun into an (unregistered) SBR, but what if it is on a "firearm" ? Any different??

It sounds like I'm trying to have my cake and eat it too, but I'm just looking for opinions and ideas.

 

[JollyMon]

2) hypothetically, what if I were to attach something like the SB15 brace and shoulder it? If I understand the ATF opinion letter, it would reconstitute/construct a handgun into an (unregistered) SBR, but what if it is on a "firearm" ? Any different??

If you shoulder it, it would then reclassify it as short barrel rifle as the barrel length is less than 16" and has a "stock".... from my understanding.


.... but then as soon as you take it off your shoulder it goes back to being a firearm

 

[throttletony]

If you shoulder it, it would then reclassify it as short barrel rifle as the barrel length is less than 16" and has a "stock".... from my understanding.


.... but then as soon as you take it off your shoulder it goes back to being a firearm

this is essentially what I was thinking as well. A person could go crazy thinking about this stuff.

I wonder if the concept of shouldering the SB15/similar will ever be revisited, go to court, or if the ATF will further change their stance (either more restrictive or accepting)

 

[jwh20]

If you shoulder it, it would then reclassify it as short barrel rifle as the barrel length is less than 16" and has a "stock".... from my understanding.


.... but then as soon as you take it off your shoulder it goes back to being a firearm

It's all confusing as heck but I understood the BATFE's ruling on this to say that once you shoulder an AR pistol with a Sig brace (and I'm assuming similar "stabilizers") that you have "re-designed" it (their words!) into an SBR and from that point forward it's an NFA item. So by shouldering it before obtaining the tax stamp you have violated the law and you have (legally) no recourse but to turn yourself in and confess to your "crime".

Of course this is utter bullcrap but the ATF has a LOT more lawyers and unlimited money. So you might prevail in court at some point but you'll be ruined and until your appeals are finished, branded as a felon.

None of this makes any sense at all but remember that we're talking about the ATF under Barack Obama. It doesn't have to make sense, they can and do pretty much whatever they can get away with.

 

[throttletony]

It's all confusing as heck but I understood the BATFE's ruling on this to say that once you shoulder an AR pistol with a Sig brace (and I'm assuming similar "stabilizers") that you have "re-designed" it (their words!) into an SBR and from that point forward it's an NFA item. So by shouldering it before obtaining the tax stamp you have violated the law and you have (legally) no recourse but to turn yourself in and confess to your "crime".

Of course this is utter bullcrap but the ATF has a LOT more lawyers and unlimited money. So you might prevail in court at some point but you'll be ruined and until your appeals are finished, branded as a felon.

None of this makes any sense at all but remember that we're talking about the ATF under Barack Obama. It doesn't have to make sense, they can and do pretty much whatever they can get away with.

But that goes back to the original question --- would shouldering a "firearm" + SB15 be the same as shouldering an AR pistol + SB15?

THAT's the distinction I'm trying to discuss

 

[croy]

Indiana deer hunting handgun law says under 26 inches. The way I understand if your hunting with a handgun it must be under 26 inches in Indiana

 

[Bfish]

Indiana deer hunting handgun law says under 26 inches. The way I understand if your hunting with a handgun it must be under 26 inches in Indiana

Because of this I am thinking about taking a deer with a 300blk pistol this year!

 

[wsenefeld]

But that goes back to the original question --- would shouldering a "firearm" + SB15 be the same as shouldering an AR pistol + SB15?

THAT's the distinction I'm trying to discuss

There would be no difference. The ATF would see it as you putting a stock on a firearm with a barrel less than 16" so they'd feel you only purchased the SB15 to circumvent having to pay the $200 tax. Doesn't matter if it started as a pistol or firearm. All they see is an unregistered SBR.

 

[digitalrebel80]

Indiana deer hunting handgun law says under 26 inches. The way I understand if your hunting with a handgun it must be under 26 inches in Indiana

I thought the law has an or clause of less then 16 inch barrel. Is there anything in the hunting regs that says it has to be less then 26 inches?

 

[throttletony]

Indiana deer hunting handgun law says under 26 inches. The way I understand if your hunting with a handgun it must be under 26 inches in Indiana

Because of this I am thinking about taking a deer with a 300blk pistol this year!

Awesome, a 300BLK pistol is a great idea for deer. Try the Barnes black tip (don't remember if they're the Xtreme or the tripleshock), they work great at the lower velocities of the 300BLK. For a 300BLK pistol, anywhere in the 8" - 10" barrel length is perfect, cause it gets full powder burn right under 9" (depending on load). Noveske makes a 8.3" barrel, and tons of companies offer 8.5/9", 10.5", 12" etc. Right now it's a builder's market!!!
I have a 10.5" barrel on mine, and with my buffer tube (slightly longer than normal, by Midwest Industries), I'm just a hair over 26", BUT I can swap out my buffer tube for a standard carbine/pistol tube or other that is shorter and be under 26" OAL. I'll check indiana DNR regs to see if it's barrel length or OAL (or both) that matters for pistol hunting.

There would be no difference. The ATF would see it as you putting a stock on a firearm with a barrel less than 16" so they'd feel you only purchased the SB15 to circumvent having to pay the $200 tax. Doesn't matter if it started as a pistol or firearm. All they see is an unregistered SBR.

This is what I was thinking as well