Opinions on Clays vs. Titegroup Powders

[Skip]

A better statement for what I shoot might be in order. 99.99999999999% of all HANDGUN loads that I shoot are lead. Sorry to add to the confusion.

 

[XtremeVel]

How does a properly applied factory crimp, using the Lee FCD, resize bullets, while a properly applied taper crimp will not? If the FCD resizes an intentionally oversized bullet, doesn't it only do so in the very short area where the crimp is applied?

In straight walled pistol cartridges, the Lee FCD has the carbide insert embedded bottom side of the die. It's the function of the " secondary " sizing ring that can resize your cast bullet. You can actually feel the resistance when that bullet gets resized. When I order and specify I want my bullets at .452 or .356, I'd like em to stay there...

In truly straight walled cases such as .40 & .45 ACP, I took diamond compound and a brass barrel and honed out .0005/.001 a side. Before opening up the carbide insert, I did find it was resizing the bullet...

Now in 9mm, I just lock the die down maybe a full turn above top of the shell holder and adjust the crimp accordingly... I have never had that die resize the bullet... I am thinking it's because of the slight taper in the case and fact I'm not running the die all the way down ???

 

[bgcatty]

I am shooting .38 Semi Wad Cutters hard cast lead bullets with a brinnel of 16-18. Like I said in the original post, I've been using Titegroup. Lite loads in the 850 fps range. just looking for a cleaner burning powder. Lots of good suggestions here.

 

[XtremeVel]

I am shooting .38 Semi Wad Cutters hard cast lead bullets with a brinnel of 16-18. Like I said in the original post, I've been using Titegroup. Lite loads in the 850 fps range. just looking for a cleaner burning powder. Lots of good suggestions here.

You bringing up the hardness is another point you may want to explore.

16-18 there is pretty hard, IMO. I would ask someone with more knowledge of Clays if they would think you would get enough safe pressure for that hardness and desired velocity.

I'm simply not familiar enough with Clays to know, but I have found best results with the powder I use having the hardness at 12 and I run a little more than 850 fps and get absolutely no leading.

 

[mssmith44]

There are a lot of different opinions out there. "Clean burning" with lead bullets is not possible maybe not even cleaner burning. Supposedly a clean burning powder with lead bullets is WST. I have burned a lot of it in wadcutter loads. Currently the problem that I have is what someone else mentioned. I can't find any more accurate powder than Bullseye.

 

[billybob44]

Hard bullet..

I am shooting .38 Semi Wad Cutters hard cast lead bullets with a brinnel of 16-18. Like I said in the original post, I've been using Titegroup. Lite loads in the 850 fps range. just looking for a cleaner burning powder. Lots of good suggestions here.

cat, that's a pretty hard bullet to be used in a .38 Special load. BNL of 16-18 would be more suited to a .357 Magnum load at around 1100-1200fps.
It's a wonder that you are getting a good gas seal at your bullet speed (850fps.)?
The 158gr.(SWC + RN) bullets that I cast from straight wheel weights weigh 161-162gr. when lubed. This tells me that I am a little heavy on the lead content of the alloy. I would guess my bullets are around 10-12 BNL, and do a good job on my .38 Special target loads.

Missouri Bullet Company

^^^This is a GREAT bullet if you want to shoot a 158gr. SWC at 850-900fps., and the people at MBC are great to work with...Bill.

 

[Leo]

I just got done shooting 100) 158gr SWC loads about 20 minutes ago. They are hard at an advertised 18 brinell from MasterCast bullets in PA. 3.0 gr clays was very consistant and accurate. This is found in the Hodgdon's web site. I cannot say it is any cleaner than the TiteGroup load I usually run. I get the same bullet lube smell and smoke. My 148gr hollow base wadcutter load uses 2.4 gr (also right out of the Hodgdon data) The Speer bullets I use are swaged and pretty soft. They are very accurate and not as much lube smoke as with the blue lube bullets. My other 148gr bullets are from Hornady. They are also swaged abut are lubed with a white powder, probably motor mica. They have a different kind of smoke.

I understand that Rainier offers a copper plated 148 gr full wadcutter, I will probably try them before too long.

 

[noylj]

Not to rain on anyone's parade, just my findings/opinions:
No one should be able to write "accurate" without reference to WHAT accuracy they are talking about.
"Accuracy" for me, in a standard handgun (not a T/C Contender or equal) is less than 2" at 25 yards, consistently.
With a 200gn L-SWC (mastercastbullets.com "soft" bullet or Zero or Precision Delta swaged bullets), I can get that accuracy day in and day out with 4.0-5.4gn of 231/HP38. Likewise, 3.0-4.6gn of AA2, 4.4-4.7gn Am. Select, 4.1-5.1gn Solo 1000, OR 3.5gn of Clays. NOT 3.6gn. NOT 3.4gn. ONLY 3.5gn. If I use a powder measure, I lose that single spot. That, to me, is NOT an accurate powder.
YMMV, but it does not mean that my findings are not just as true. Personally, I like the fact that 231/HP38 is accurate over a wide range of charge weights and it holds that accuracy out to 50 yards with loads using a Dillon or Lee powder measure.
Then, I find in .45 Auto, .40 S&W, .38 Special Wadcutter, and 9x19 that any load of Clays and N310 (and sometimes TiteGroup also) higher than minimum will give me occasional pressure spikes/higher recoil with WEIGHED charges. Not my idea of a good powder.
The whole idea of a clean powder can only be important if YOUR gun fires 200 rounds or more, fast, and you have any functioning problems. I have never, in shooting IPSC, PPC, bowling pins, and steel plates ever had any problem with the smoke from my lead bullets or any functioning problems with any gun I have competed with, but I don't think I have ever fired more than 200 rounds in a single competition with a single gun, so I can not address what I hear about IDPA.
All my guns are cleaned every 5000 rounds or so, whether they need it or not--including tight guns with Bar-Sto barrels. Of course, I also have never had a 1911 that needed more than three drops of oil to function. I have seen some guns with functional problems, but they all were stopped due to a lot of oil turned to grease/tar or broken parts.
I shoot to achieve small groups and look for powders that meet that need. If my need is to hit a 6-12" target inside 25 yards, then I might give up accuracy for speed, but I would so note in my posts.
18BHN is about what some of my cast .30 caliber bullets, without gas checks, run—but NOT any of my handgun bullets—including HOT .44 Mag loads.
The Lee FCD for pistols makes a great crimp. However, a lot of times my cast bullets are over-sized and they have been swaged down my the die—particularly the Rem. 148gn L-HBWCs that run .360-.361 at the skirt and are super accurate IF NOT SWAGED DOWN. It makes a great Bulge Buster and a minimum sizing die, particularly for .38 Special wadcutter loads where most accurate loads use UNSIZED cases.
I have tried the Rainier plated 148gn wadcutters. Lots of luck. I still have about 300 of a box of 500 that I use as a door stop. Whether a S&W M52 or revolver, they were not acceptable.
Hornady bullets, like Precision Delta, are lubed with a wax emulsion (like Rooster Jacket) and lightly coated with fine mica, so bullet don't stick together.

 

[Leo]

You sound like a serious bullseye shooter. Not many left. The old guys I knew were amazing, like a machine rest with arms. As any bullseye shooter knows, there are fewer and fewer clubs that do that sport. PPC has died also, that was my game. ICORE events are hard to find. Metallic silhouette is getting pretty quiet. I tried to sponser a bullseye league about 10 years ago. Only one guy signed up. Most are now doing USPSA, IDPA, various club variety action pistol, etc.

For a qualified statement, how about 93 percent score on a NRA regulation B-16 target at a well lit, well ventilated indoor range. One in the 8ring, none in the white. My revolver and the load is capable of 100% score, but I am the weak link. Most of the time I can tell the bad shot as soon as the trigger breaks. After years of serious training, I can usually break a shot and declare "good" or "9 ring at 5:00" and be correct. When I cannot reliably tell, it is either a bad load or a junk firearm. I tried a clays load on my .40 Para limited. Not a single shot was on call. Going back to my old load, they were all on call. I abandoned that load and was glad I only loaded 50 of them.

I have never had any powder that I could tell the difference of plus a tenth or minus a tenth, even when I shot big bore silhouette. I never won any championships in pistol either. I got a few Plaques for doing well in my classification, but never won event.

The observation that an oversized case can actually swage a bullet undersize is interesting. When I get a chance, I am going to put a wadcutter into a sized case and then slice the case with a dremel tool to be able to measure how much I am loosing. I use almost no crimp on target ammo and never have set back or bullets pulling out because of the soft recoil in a full underlug heavy revolver. I always figuered the hollow base on a wadcutter compensated as soon as the pressure started.