I have noticed a couple of threads lately where the discussion has resulted in a generalized bashing of law enforcement officers. There is currently a thread where an INGO member generalizes that all LEOs do whatever they want (implied as to illegal search/seizer). I do not feel such generalizations are constructive or appropriate on this forum. This type of thinking presents an image that we (responsible gun owners) are a bunch of radical gun nuts. In my opinion such postings should be edited or removed.
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Request/Suggestion RE: Cop Bashing IMHO
- Thread starter AFA1CY
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evansvillethompsongunner
Shooter
- Oct 29, 2009
- 2,434
- 36
AFAIK, they are.
But you've got to understand, there are only what, eight mods and one sysadmin for what, seven thousand people now?
Bound to happen sooner or later... but yes, I do agree that it doesn't present the best image of INGO. Last thing we need is to become the Mos Eisley of the internet-forum world. I don't think Fenway nor the mods will or would let things get that bad, though. As is, most over-generalized/over-the-line posts are deleted pretty timely, IMO. But with thousands of people, a few uncouth comments are bound to pop up from time to time. Hopefully people make their statements specific, so as not to taint with too-broad a brushstroke an entire profession.
But you've got to understand, there are only what, eight mods and one sysadmin for what, seven thousand people now?
Bound to happen sooner or later... but yes, I do agree that it doesn't present the best image of INGO. Last thing we need is to become the Mos Eisley of the internet-forum world. I don't think Fenway nor the mods will or would let things get that bad, though. As is, most over-generalized/over-the-line posts are deleted pretty timely, IMO. But with thousands of people, a few uncouth comments are bound to pop up from time to time. Hopefully people make their statements specific, so as not to taint with too-broad a brushstroke an entire profession.
As ETG said, there are 8 mods and 7000+ general members. Y'all are wordy, so we can't read every single post, every single day. If you feel there is something that is inappropriate, please use the "report post" feature to bring it to our attention.
I do have to say I'm glad to see a member bring this topic up. "Generalized cop bashing" is something that we as moderators discuss more frequently than we'd like to. Pointing out one specific incident and discussing that incident is accepted. Painting all LEO with a wide brush is as foolish as saying all gun owners are redneck hicks or irresponsible gangbangers.
I do have to say I'm glad to see a member bring this topic up. "Generalized cop bashing" is something that we as moderators discuss more frequently than we'd like to. Pointing out one specific incident and discussing that incident is accepted. Painting all LEO with a wide brush is as foolish as saying all gun owners are redneck hicks or irresponsible gangbangers.
In reality we (the members) should be "self policing". 
DoubleTap Tactical
Plinker
- Dec 16, 2009
- 79
- 6
So what your saying is that ALL Cops are not really JBT's? And that there are bad apples in Law Enforcement just as in any profession? Your really kicking the hornets nest now. (sarcasm intended)
Joe Williams
Shooter
- Jun 26, 2008
- 10,431
- 38
As INGO has made clear more than once, they do not permit criticism of police officers, and abuse of police powers has often been included in this ban. This is a fine site to talk about guns, but it is not a pro-2A or 4A site when it comes to police officers. The leadership feels officers are beyond reproach, and do not bear watching despite the enormous power they wield. Folks interested in such conversation need to look elsewhere.
public servant
Grandmaster
Surely you're not referring to comments like these:
Perhaps one of them was the original author of this article that is being circulated in an e-mail. It reportedly originated from the Terre Haute area.
Dear Officer:
I don't want to kill you. I don't even want to wound you. I admire your courage and the commitment you've made to help others, often at risk of own your life. I hope you won't come for me, because if you do, one of us will die. It may be you.
I've done nothing wrong. I don't intend to. But the government which you serve has passed too many laws. I am sure to accidentally break one, some day. And that same government is systematically destroying the unalienable rights which our Constitution says may not be infringed — very specifically, my right to keep and bear arms.
I am not some wacko lunatic, but I can no longer stand idly by, while decent people are systematically enslaved by an out-of-control government. I cannot allow a corrupt judiciary to use its power to destroy my rights and my country. That government and that judiciary has begun to use you to arrest and kill people just like me — people who believe that the Declaration of Independence, the
Constitution and the Bill of Rights mean what they say.
You don't know me, but you see me every day. I may be a businessman, a truck driver, an executive. I could be a housewife or a salesman. But I am armed, as Americans have been for over 250 years, and I am determined to keep the freedoms which only an armed people may retain. With a rifle, I can hit a man-sized target at 800 yards. At shorter distances, in the blink of an eye, I can
hit a head-size target with a rifle or a handgun. I don't wear a uniform. I don't drive a marked car. I don't wear camouflage. I could be your own secretary, or your barber. I might be the guy who delivers your bottled water, or the parcel delivery lady. You don't know who I am, or what arms I have, and you never will. I am tens of millions.
I am America.
But I know you. I know your uniform, your car, and your work schedule. I know where you work, and where you live. And that is good for you, because not only am I no threat to you, so long as you do the job for which you are hired, I am also prepared to assist you when you are threatened by real criminals. There aren't many of me left, you may think, but believe me, there are many, many more
than you can imagine. When the chips are down, we are the ones who are truly on your side.
On your side, that is, so long as you honor your Oath. We are on your side if you are one of the majority of peace officers who are not corrupt and who have not sold out to the socialists and communists — freedom betrayers who will do anything, say anything to destroy the America our fathers and grandfathers bequeathed us.
No, I am no threat to you, but your bosses in government don't see it that way. They think that I, and my arms, are a threat to them, and they are planning to send you for me, just as they've sent armed, dangerous officers on select little missions for years, taking out targeted individuals. On their orders, you may succeed in murdering me for my beliefs.
Or you may not.
Whether or not you succeed in murdering me, as federal agents murdered Vicki Weaver and her young son in Idaho; or as those same federal agents murdered 81 men, women and children at Waco, Texas; there will be others who will rise up in my memory, as I now rise up in honor of the innocent lives taken by the jack-booted thugs and black-clad imitation ninjas who think it is fun to
murder Americans — who have somehow become convinced that it is their job to murder Americans!
I am prepared to die, honoring my sacred Oath as an American, to defend and protect the Constitution of the united States of America. Are you prepared to die to violate the Oath you took?
You see, our government is out of control. It has rotted, from the top down. You know it. You've seen it. But you, like many others, have been too concerned with your job, your family, and your pension, to say or do anything about it. Deep down, you know I am right.
But you think you must follow orders.
Or must you? Are you going to murder me for having the courage to stand up for the country and the principles in which you believe?
Are you going to go along with unconscionably illegal, unconstitutional orders, just as "good" German soldiers followed their orders?
Are you going to be a peace officer or a jack-booted thug?
There is little difference between a street outlaw who murders and robs; and a uniformed thug who murders and robs under color of law. The result is the same. Property confiscated, lives ruined, families ripped apart, murder committed, and a free nation destroyed. Look at history. Look around the world. As we move toward a lawless society, our country moves closer and closer to anarchy and then some form of fascism. Are you going to enforce unconstitutional laws? Are you going to be the private army of socio/fascist dictators who masquerade as democratic representatives?
Or are you going to do your part to recapture America? Are you going to keep your eyes and ears open? Will you quietly let me know when the jack-booted thugs in the SWAT teams have targeted me? Will you let your fellow officers know that they are being sold down the river by their corrupt masters?
Don't come to kill me. Because I don't want to kill you.
If you do come, you may succeed — if you get lucky. But don't count on luck, because it will probably be hard — damned hard. Like millions of other Americans, I am the son or daughter of a nation of riflemen — citizen-soldiers who have a rich heritage of beating the best the enemy can send against us. We are resourceful. We cherish our homes and freedom. We understand weapons and tactics. You are foolish if you intend to be our enemy.
If you don't succeed, and in the long run, you won't, here's what you can expect: ambushes of SWAT teams, and the wholesale slaughter of all the jack-booted thugs who have murdered innocent Americans on the orders of their socialist masters; targeted assassinations and kidnappings of anti-Constitution judges, and assassinations of anti-American, anti-gun politicians.
By your willingness to be a good little Nazi, you will have unleashed a civil war — just what America's enemies want.
It doesn't have to be that way. You can do something about it. It's easy. Read the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Although you took an Oath to defend them, you don't learn much about them in your training, do you?
Today, these documents are considered dangerous by the government, just as King George found them dangerous over 200 years ago.
Why do you suppose your leaders lead you to oppose the very rights you swore to protect? Why do they want a disarmed public?
You know the reason. It has nothing to do with controlling crime. It has everything to do with using you to disarm, fine, control, and ultimately murder your American fellows — just like the brownshirts and the SS did to German citizens.
Don't fall for it. Don't force me to kill you.
(signed) 100 Million American Patriots
They are entitled to their opinions. The bashing does seem to have increased in frequency with the current membership explosion. The mods do an excellent job of taking out the trash when necessary, IMO.
Then we have a member that likes throwing around the term "cop killer".First Court or Seventh Court, it does not matter, any goverment minion aka Judge will not rule against another goverment minion. Folks we no longer live in a free country, the United States of America has turned into a soft tirany. It just been a slow prosses where the goverment has slowly taken more and more of our Rights, so we don't notice. Why do you think our so called elected officials do not give a dam as to what we think. Cops rutinely interpret Indiana Laws, even thow they are not, judges or lawyers, and not to mention make up new rules and regulations as they go. Hell they won't give each other speeding tickets, but will not hesitate to fill their non existng quotas with us. Our so called public servants have becomed our defacto masters and think nothing of it. Laws don't mean anything to them anymore, they will violate the Constitution, but don't try to film their abuses, or they will drag you to jail on some made up charge, and fill justified about it.
Perhaps one of them was the original author of this article that is being circulated in an e-mail. It reportedly originated from the Terre Haute area.
Dear Officer:
I don't want to kill you. I don't even want to wound you. I admire your courage and the commitment you've made to help others, often at risk of own your life. I hope you won't come for me, because if you do, one of us will die. It may be you.
I've done nothing wrong. I don't intend to. But the government which you serve has passed too many laws. I am sure to accidentally break one, some day. And that same government is systematically destroying the unalienable rights which our Constitution says may not be infringed — very specifically, my right to keep and bear arms.
I am not some wacko lunatic, but I can no longer stand idly by, while decent people are systematically enslaved by an out-of-control government. I cannot allow a corrupt judiciary to use its power to destroy my rights and my country. That government and that judiciary has begun to use you to arrest and kill people just like me — people who believe that the Declaration of Independence, the
Constitution and the Bill of Rights mean what they say.
You don't know me, but you see me every day. I may be a businessman, a truck driver, an executive. I could be a housewife or a salesman. But I am armed, as Americans have been for over 250 years, and I am determined to keep the freedoms which only an armed people may retain. With a rifle, I can hit a man-sized target at 800 yards. At shorter distances, in the blink of an eye, I can
hit a head-size target with a rifle or a handgun. I don't wear a uniform. I don't drive a marked car. I don't wear camouflage. I could be your own secretary, or your barber. I might be the guy who delivers your bottled water, or the parcel delivery lady. You don't know who I am, or what arms I have, and you never will. I am tens of millions.
I am America.
But I know you. I know your uniform, your car, and your work schedule. I know where you work, and where you live. And that is good for you, because not only am I no threat to you, so long as you do the job for which you are hired, I am also prepared to assist you when you are threatened by real criminals. There aren't many of me left, you may think, but believe me, there are many, many more
than you can imagine. When the chips are down, we are the ones who are truly on your side.
On your side, that is, so long as you honor your Oath. We are on your side if you are one of the majority of peace officers who are not corrupt and who have not sold out to the socialists and communists — freedom betrayers who will do anything, say anything to destroy the America our fathers and grandfathers bequeathed us.
No, I am no threat to you, but your bosses in government don't see it that way. They think that I, and my arms, are a threat to them, and they are planning to send you for me, just as they've sent armed, dangerous officers on select little missions for years, taking out targeted individuals. On their orders, you may succeed in murdering me for my beliefs.
Or you may not.
Whether or not you succeed in murdering me, as federal agents murdered Vicki Weaver and her young son in Idaho; or as those same federal agents murdered 81 men, women and children at Waco, Texas; there will be others who will rise up in my memory, as I now rise up in honor of the innocent lives taken by the jack-booted thugs and black-clad imitation ninjas who think it is fun to
murder Americans — who have somehow become convinced that it is their job to murder Americans!
I am prepared to die, honoring my sacred Oath as an American, to defend and protect the Constitution of the united States of America. Are you prepared to die to violate the Oath you took?
You see, our government is out of control. It has rotted, from the top down. You know it. You've seen it. But you, like many others, have been too concerned with your job, your family, and your pension, to say or do anything about it. Deep down, you know I am right.
But you think you must follow orders.
Or must you? Are you going to murder me for having the courage to stand up for the country and the principles in which you believe?
Are you going to go along with unconscionably illegal, unconstitutional orders, just as "good" German soldiers followed their orders?
Are you going to be a peace officer or a jack-booted thug?
There is little difference between a street outlaw who murders and robs; and a uniformed thug who murders and robs under color of law. The result is the same. Property confiscated, lives ruined, families ripped apart, murder committed, and a free nation destroyed. Look at history. Look around the world. As we move toward a lawless society, our country moves closer and closer to anarchy and then some form of fascism. Are you going to enforce unconstitutional laws? Are you going to be the private army of socio/fascist dictators who masquerade as democratic representatives?
Or are you going to do your part to recapture America? Are you going to keep your eyes and ears open? Will you quietly let me know when the jack-booted thugs in the SWAT teams have targeted me? Will you let your fellow officers know that they are being sold down the river by their corrupt masters?
Don't come to kill me. Because I don't want to kill you.
If you do come, you may succeed — if you get lucky. But don't count on luck, because it will probably be hard — damned hard. Like millions of other Americans, I am the son or daughter of a nation of riflemen — citizen-soldiers who have a rich heritage of beating the best the enemy can send against us. We are resourceful. We cherish our homes and freedom. We understand weapons and tactics. You are foolish if you intend to be our enemy.
If you don't succeed, and in the long run, you won't, here's what you can expect: ambushes of SWAT teams, and the wholesale slaughter of all the jack-booted thugs who have murdered innocent Americans on the orders of their socialist masters; targeted assassinations and kidnappings of anti-Constitution judges, and assassinations of anti-American, anti-gun politicians.
By your willingness to be a good little Nazi, you will have unleashed a civil war — just what America's enemies want.
It doesn't have to be that way. You can do something about it. It's easy. Read the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Although you took an Oath to defend them, you don't learn much about them in your training, do you?
Today, these documents are considered dangerous by the government, just as King George found them dangerous over 200 years ago.
Why do you suppose your leaders lead you to oppose the very rights you swore to protect? Why do they want a disarmed public?
You know the reason. It has nothing to do with controlling crime. It has everything to do with using you to disarm, fine, control, and ultimately murder your American fellows — just like the brownshirts and the SS did to German citizens.
Don't fall for it. Don't force me to kill you.
(signed) 100 Million American Patriots
They are entitled to their opinions. The bashing does seem to have increased in frequency with the current membership explosion. The mods do an excellent job of taking out the trash when necessary, IMO.
:wtf:
Look, the above post was full of sarcasm and understandably so. I have been around reading many posts and only a few times have I seen what would consider LEO bashing.
The LEO should always get the benefit of the doubt, BUT if it is a case where power was abused, it needs to be brought to light.
Heck there is even a post where a LEO cleaned a darn license plate for a guy...so this works both ways.
There are many LEO's in here and they contribute much to our little home away from home. Bashing for the sake of bashing serves no real purpose and makes the poster look like an *** to the rest of us anyway.
Sorry for the Rant..
Look, the above post was full of sarcasm and understandably so. I have been around reading many posts and only a few times have I seen what would consider LEO bashing.
The LEO should always get the benefit of the doubt, BUT if it is a case where power was abused, it needs to be brought to light.
Heck there is even a post where a LEO cleaned a darn license plate for a guy...so this works both ways.
There are many LEO's in here and they contribute much to our little home away from home. Bashing for the sake of bashing serves no real purpose and makes the poster look like an *** to the rest of us anyway.
Sorry for the Rant..
I think that allowing members to discuss specific incidents but not to make general statements is a fine policy. We shouldn't make general statements about any group. There are good cops and bad cops in the same way that there are good doctors and bad doctors. Firearms ownership involves being aware of certain laws and sometimes interacting with law enforcement. If a member has an interaction or hears about one and wants to discuss it I think that those discussions can be productive. If a member wants to go on a rant and say that all cops are bad, well, I don't see that as any sort of productive discussion.
On the other hand, if we say that members aren't allowed to criticise the police by discussing specific instances then we are letting the pendulum swing too far in the opposite direction. A little healthy criticism can be a good thing, even for a police officer.
On the other hand, if we say that members aren't allowed to criticise the police by discussing specific instances then we are letting the pendulum swing too far in the opposite direction. A little healthy criticism can be a good thing, even for a police officer.
Joe (and anyone else who feels the same way) --
You are attributing incorrect reasoning to our policy regarding "cop bashing".
Here is what we ask: Please do not make broad generalizations about police or the job they perform. Specific incidents are welcome (and encouraged) to be discussed.
Why do we ask this? Because we've seen a history of threads degenerating into flame wars over issues that were never intended in the OP. This, in turn, widens the "us vs. them" mentality-- in general, and specifically in the INGO community (and the cops here are actually on our side).
AFA1CY - your suggestion of self-policing (great pun, btw) is an excellent one!
I think MOST Ingoer's agree that Bashing of anytype is not helpful but I also think there should be the free exchange of information and when it comes to certain groups of people there are more than a few bad apples and when a specific problem shows or if there is an area where these problems are allowed or promoted then it should be made aware of.
A complete ban is as wrong as a complete label.
My opinion is that if a comment is offensive without facts and proof then it should not matter if its about a group of people, a firearm, or my dog it shouldn't be allowed, If theirs Vid, pics, court cases to back it up then it should stand.
A complete ban is as wrong as a complete label.
My opinion is that if a comment is offensive without facts and proof then it should not matter if its about a group of people, a firearm, or my dog it shouldn't be allowed, If theirs Vid, pics, court cases to back it up then it should stand.
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