SBR with trust before 41P

[Thegeek]

I was thinking about getting a quality stripped lower and submitting form 1 before 41P goes into effect. Looking at form 1, they ask questions about barrel length, over all length, and caliber. Let's say I'm going for a 300blk but also have a .223 pistol upper. Since it's the same lower, does it matter? What if my 10" barrel just doesn't cut it and I switch to a 14"? Also, if you have an adjustable rear stock, how do you fill in overall length?

I'd like to get this right and not get in trouble.....

 

[Beowulf]

I was thinking about getting a quality stripped lower and submitting form 1 before 41P goes into effect. Looking at form 1, they ask questions about barrel length, over all length, and caliber. Let's say I'm going for a 300blk but also have a .223 pistol upper. Since it's the same lower, does it matter? What if my 10" barrel just doesn't cut it and I switch to a 14"? Also, if you have an adjustable rear stock, how do you fill in overall length?

I'd like to get this right and not get in trouble.....

Basically, you measure the overall length with whatever upper you want to pair with it and with the retractable stock fully extended.

You can always swap your uppers around. Some people will say that you will always need to keep the original upper (or one of equivalent length) on hand, so you can "restore" the SBR to the original dimensions from the Form 1/4, but after talking to an ATF examiner it doesn't really matter that much. If you decide that you hate your 10" .300 BLK upper and only like your 7" .223 upper, you can sell off your .300 BLK upper. The ATF would just like you to send them an update of the barrel and OAL length change.

I think their insistence on having an OAL and barrel length for a registered receiver is relatively recent. My M16 was originally registered as a bare receiver by Sendra, so it had no OAL length or barrel length (it was registered in 84, I believe). When I submitted the Form 4 to have it transferred to me, they wanted me to update the Form 4 to indicate what the OAL and barrel length were in it's A2 configuration. I also submitted the measurements with a collapsible Magpul stock and a Noveske 10.5" upper on it. After the stamp was approved, I built the A2 upper, tube, buffer, and stock into a retro semi-auto on an extra lower I had and sold the whole thing off to a buddy.

 

[chef1231]

I would contact a lawyer that might be able to answer this, I use Grant Liston. My understanding (and I could be wrong) is that you have to have the top and bottom serialized.

 

[KJQ6945]

I would contact a lawyer that might be able to answer this, I use Grant Liston. My understanding (and I could be wrong) is that you have to have the top and bottom serialized.

The lower is already serialized, it is the registered part. Uppers can be changed at will.

 

[Trigger Time]

You used to be able to list multiple calibers on the form 1 and ATF accepted that. Not anymore. Now you need to attach a paper to your form 1 with:
- your name (or trust name)
- you as the trustee or individual (printed and signed)
- date
- model number and serial number of the lower
- calibers of the configurations you wish to use
- barrel lengths of .......
- overall lengths of ......

attach it it directly to the form 1 with your initial submission or you can send it in seperate at a later date

 

[Trigger Time]

What one examiner lets you get away with doesn't mean all of atf agents will. The above is the way it's Legaly supposed to be done.

 

[Thegeek]

Thanks TT. My plan is for a 10" barrel 300. So, I would need to attach an additional listing of the configurations if I wanted to change calibers. Do you have to do the same if you have a telescoping stock. A 6 position stock would yield 6 different OAL.

 

[Trigger Time]

Thanks TT. My plan is for a 10" barrel 300. So, I would need to attach an additional listing of the configurations if I wanted to change calibers. Do you have to do the same if you have a telescoping stock. A 6 position stock would yield 6 different OAL.

U extend the stock and measure it's overall length with the stock extended. Also the atf expects you to do all of these measurements without assembling or even owning the parts to convert it to an SBR prior to the stamp coming back. So guesstimates are done by many people. You can get pretty close with alittle math. If you measure a 16" upper with the stock extended, and your going to be building a SBR with a 10.5" barrel then you can just take off the inches to get the right length.
also when you measure overall length and barrel length the muzzle does not count unless it's pinned and welded on. So measure from the end of the threaded barrel

 

[avboiler11]

If you use GoogleFu, you will find a number of guides of how to complete a Form 1 for SBR written by numerous NFA attorneys.

You list the initial configuration you intend to build the SBR as, then you are not prevented from changing upper caliber/barrel length/etc. nor are you legally compelled to notify ATF of changing caliber/barrel length/etc.

 

[Thegeek]

Unfortunately, lots of conflicting or over simplified information on Google/Youtube.

 

[Trigger Time]

If you use GoogleFu, you will find a number of guides of how to complete a Form 1 for SBR written by numerous NFA attorneys.

You list the initial configuration you intend to build the SBR as, then you are not prevented from changing upper caliber/barrel length/etc. nor are you legally compelled to notify ATF of changing caliber/barrel length/etc.

if you want to take a chance on getting hemmed up then follow your own advice. However I will follow a lawyers advice.
some lawyers even say don't put a reason for the NFA item like "target practice" instead of "all legal purposes" because if you use it for say self defense, your form was not approved for that purpose and they could get you on it. That's a stretch
but on the upper configurations I'm not taking any chances. It's easy just to submit a damn piece of paper as an amendment when you submit your form 1 or to submit one later. Safe than sorry.

 

[Trigger Time]

Imean that is why we pay $300 or so dollars for a lawyer right!? If we aren't going to follow their council then just have Mickey Mouse draw up your trust and advise you

 

[avboiler11]

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/may...-long-barrel-hunting-or-other-purposes-intent

"ATF recommends written notification to the NFA Branch when a firearm’s configuration is permanently changed"

Is changing an AR upper a "permanent change"? Does "recommend" constitute "must"?

All questions an attorney can answer...

 

[Destro]

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/may...-long-barrel-hunting-or-other-purposes-intent



Is changing an AR upper a "permanent change"?

did you miss all this?


May the short barrel on an SBR or SBS be replaced with a long barrel for hunting or other purposes, with the intent of replacing the short barrel?

Yes

 

[Beowulf]

did you miss all this?


May the short barrel on an SBR or SBS be replaced with a long barrel for hunting or other purposes, with the intent of replacing the short barrel?

Yes

Just to fill in the rest of the answer above for reference:

Yes, and you will not be required to again register the firearm before replacing the short barrel. ATF recommends written notification to the NFA Branch when a firearm’s configuration is permanently changed or removed from the purview of the NFA.

So, as has been mentioned before, you can swap uppers to your hearts content. Weirdly, the ATF doesn't even require notification if the firearm is destroyed or restored back to a non-NFA regulated configuration (just recommends it).

 

[Thegeek]

My personal concern is if I start out with .300 and decide I also want a .223 upper for it. Everything but caliber remaining equal. I don't want to be arrested then released and have to fight for a year or two to get my rifle back. I want to give them absolutely NOTHING to hold over me.

 

[Beowulf]

My personal concern is if I start out with .300 and decide I also want a .223 upper for it. Everything but caliber remaining equal. I don't want to be arrested then released and have to fight for a year or two to get my rifle back. I want to give them absolutely NOTHING to hold over me.

If you are really that concerned, do as Trigger Time suggests and file an addendum with the ATF to cover your different scenarios.

Though, I think you would be hard pressed to find examples of the ATF arresting/prosecuting people with registered SBR/MG lowers and an upper that is a different length or caliber than what is on their stamp.

 

[Thegeek]

My luck, I'd be the first.