There IS a Timer in a Gunfight by Chris Cypert

[BehindBlueI's]

Sigh. Nobody here is arguing with that. Neither is the author saying anything different than that. He is merely explaining how a shot timer can be an invaluable tool in becoming a better shooter.

No, he isn't. He's prefacing it by arguing against a common phrase about gun fights. He's not just discussing better shooter, but a better fighter and then claiming it's indispensable to use a timer. People who've never touched a timer or competition win gunfights all the time. It's *better* to have more technical skill, a better chance of prevailing in more trying circumstances, but the article overemphasizes the roll of speed IMO.

We desperately want to believe the best shooter wins because that's something we feel in control of. The simplest truth is that most people who lose didn't lose because they were too slow. Dead with a gun in a holster. Dead entangled. Dead shot from ambush. Dead after presenting a non-functioning firearm. Dead after drawing on 3+ gunmen who stayed to fight. Dead reaching for a gun under observation and trying to out draw a drawn gun.

The author likely does know, but the issue with having a column to write is word count is low for a complex topic and you always need something new to say on a deadline...and there's not that much new to say. T

BBI jumped in with a bunch of stuff that most of us are aware of and that has nothing to do with the point of the actual article.

My original post was simply:
**The timer is a tool like a batting cage is. As long as one understands the differences, it's a valuable tool. When people don't get that the timer often doesn't start until you start it in a real world situation, that hell for leather from a surrender position gets you shot, etc. then you have problems. Sometimes of the fatal sort.

Speed sometimes matters, sometimes it doesn't. Better to have the option...but not at the cost of smart tactics.**


And from there responded to other posts, including yours about some divide between competition and tactical timmies which I still don't see.

I'll see myself out, though, I'm done with this thread.

 

[Twangbanger]

If you start an INGO thread about shooting your bow better, and check back in 15 posts, it hasn't devolved into a discussion about camo, stalking, and scent...

...but bring up timers...

 

[bwframe]

...I was never a very good shooter, it's just that the people I was shooting with were usually even less good and none of us knew it. The skill of people that attend classes has improved dramatically in the last decade.

Isn't this all of us? Most of us didn't know what we didn't know.

That comes back to using the whole package of self-defense training along with some competition to well round your gun handling and marksmanship skill, not to mention speed.

Never forget Coach teaching an early self defense class with ACT (before BFT.) He did a class demonstration with his M&P carry pistol. Little black striker pistol ran nearly as fast as the race guns I was used to seeing him shoot in USPSA. And while we were shooting full sized profile targets, Coaches hits could be covered with your thumb on each target.

Conversely, at entry level self defense classes, conducted by nationally known instructors, I seen numerous guns hit the ground. Serpa holsters lock up and have to be taken apart with tools. Some pistols that just weren't acceptable for self defense or any other kind of shooting, (but were easy to carry.) Not to mention firearms safety violations that turned instructors ghostly pale.

Competition shooting along with the tools, record keeping and RO supervision is by no means self defense carry training. Learning how to read situations, use tactics to evade, counter and handle threats is irreplaceable. Your pistol is not your solution to self defense. That solution lies between your ears.

Your pistol handling skills benefit you when you make educated decisions on when to use them.

 

[Trapper Jim]

Short version that obviously no one wants to hear. Master and constantly test the shooting skill set before focusing on fighting, running a gun store, collecting, training for hire, hunting or any other end use.

Experience has proven to me that to bypass the skill set with equipment and gadgets and end up with junk hanging on a piece of linen that if one can even make a swift presentation, unless the target is moving he’s not gonna hit it anyway.

To focus on fighting (or any reason) before you master the tool is lazy, time and money wasting and one only fools himself.

Just this month I had a student come to the line with it all. Hours of training with what some of you call big names, latest and greatest equipment, fighting stance, looking both ways, nice ninja gun logo T-Shirt and yet the Timer reduced his shooting ability to rubbish.

 

[ECS686]

Just this month I had a student come to the line with it all. Hours of training with what some of you call big names, latest and greatest equipment, fighting stance, looking both ways, nice ninja gun logo T-Shirt and yet the Timer reduced his shooting ability to rubbish.

If a timer made him loose his skill he didn’t go to many big name trainers. OR his skill diminished pretty badly!

Spaulding, Hearne, Givens, Weems and Bolke all run timers

 

[Trapper Jim]

If a timer made him loose his skill he didn’t go to many big name trainers. OR his skill diminished pretty badly!

Spaulding, Hearne, Givens, Weems and Bolke all run timers

Just the point. Hard to loose weight just by Buying the diet book. A Scale comes in handy to measure your progress. So does a timer for your shooting skill set progress.

 

[Twangbanger]

Just the point. Hard to loose weight just by Buying the diet book. A Scale comes in handy to measure your progress. So does a timer for your shooting skill set progress.

Yah, but on tha streetz...you'll run out of time before you run out of bullets, so don't work too much on time (wait...)...er, something.

 

[devildog70]

I think it was Tom Givens that I heard say, "There is absolutely a timer in a gunfight, and the other guy is holding it."

Of course tactics, awareness, and a multitude of other things come into play, but when the bullets start flying, generally speaking, the person who lands accurate hits first, wins.

 

[ECS686]

I think it was Tom Givens that I heard say, "There is absolutely a timer in a gunfight, and the other guy is holding it."

Of course tactics, awareness, and a multitude of other things come into play, but when the bullets start flying, generally speaking, the person who lands accurate hits first, wins.

To me the point the article was trying to make is you need a reasonable bar set.

My example is the agency qualification courses is way to long on exposures and time (the topic of how big a B27 is, is a whole different topic) and I see these once a year shooters I call them with their nifty red dot out there fishing trying to find the dot. They score a 90 ish or high 80 and think oh I’m awesome (again on a large B27)

If I ran them in a Justin Dyal 5 yard round up with 2 1/2 second par and B8 repair center they’d fail miserably because they wouldn’t be able to fish for their dot.
So basic answer “Don’t be that guy/gal”

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Did not know Chris was writing now.

Thanks for the article.

 

[JTKelly]

A man needs to KNOW his limitations.

Especially if he has to bet his life on them.

You HAVE to test them to know them.

 

[Randy Harris]

I'll add my 2 cents...

This argument in one form or another has been going on since AT LEAST the 1920s. WE Fairbairn wrote an article in 1927 in The American Rifleman about the difference in target shooting and gunfighting and one of the major differences is the available time to get the shooting done. The time limits in the bullseye match and the time available to stop the guy trying to kill you tend to be drastically different. If all you do is shoot recreationally with no time limits then you are going to have a different feel for what is "fast" than someone who works with a timer. It doesn't mean you have to be a world class shooter to win a gunfight. Plenty of untrained people win gunfights...but it is largely due to the ineptitude of their opponents as it is to do with their own skills. I'd much rather be the more skilled party than be the guy hoping the other guy screws up more than I do....

William Aprill used to tell the story about going to the Rogers Shooting School in Ellijay Ga and encountering 3 police officers that were ostensibly "good" shooters. The Rogers class is based around shooting a 125 round test on moving 8" targets that stay exposed for 1-3 seconds at ranges from 7-20 yards. The AVERAGE police officer shoots about a 30-40 on the test , the AVERAGE SWAT officer shoots about a 40-50 on the test. Passing at the Basic level is 70 , Intermediate is 90 and Advanced (which only about 5% of people accomplish) is 110 or above. In the 40 years of the school only Bill Rogers himself, Rob Leatham, Manny Bragg, Gabe White, Kirk Clark and one or two other people have shot a 125. David Smith shot a 125 at Ronnie Dodd's Rogers Range in Sale Creek TN (Ronnie was at one time the chief instructor at Rogers and had a range installed at his house and David was his assistant). So in 40 years of SEAL teams, Army SF, FBI HRT, Police SWAT teams, Competition Shooters, etc etc travelling to Ellijay to shoot it only 7 or 8 people have shot a perfect score.

So William told the story about 3 police officers who were confident they would have no problem with it...after all they were the best shooters in their department. After the 1st day they were flabbergasted that they had only shot scores in the 30s. They didn't understand it because not only were they the best shooters in their department (qualification scores) but they were "the best shooters they had ever seen".....William told them "You boys should really get out more"....They had no idea what was possible because they had never been pushed to a serious time standard before and had never been around truly good shooters. Most police qual courses (Federal LE included) and essentially ALL state handgun carry permit course quals are not set up to make it HARD to pass. They are set up so that the mid level shooters WILL pass and the remedial shooters with some work CAN pass.

Now that obviously does not mean speed is the be all end all . But it means no matter how well you can shoot , if you cannot accomplish it in the time frame called for in the specific situation that you are involved in then you are not going to be successful. The faster you can get the work done the less likely you are to get killed while doing it.

 

[devildog70]

I'll add my 2 cents...

This argument in one form or another has been going on since AT LEAST the 1920s. WE Fairbairn wrote an article in 1927 in The American Rifleman about the difference in target shooting and gunfighting and one of the major differences is the available time to get the shooting done. The time limits in the bullseye match and the time available to stop the guy trying to kill you tend to be drastically different. If all you do is shoot recreationally with no time limits then you are going to have a different feel for what is "fast" than someone who works with a timer. It doesn't mean you have to be a world class shooter to win a gunfight. Plenty of untrained people win gunfights...but it is largely due to the ineptitude of their opponents as it is to do with their own skills. I'd much rather be the more skilled party than be the guy hoping the other guy screws up more than I do....

William Aprill used to tell the story about going to the Rogers Shooting School in Ellijay Ga and encountering 3 police officers that were ostensibly "good" shooters. The Rogers class is based around shooting a 125 round test on moving 8" targets that stay exposed for 1-3 seconds at ranges from 7-20 yards. The AVERAGE police officer shoots about a 30-40 on the test , the AVERAGE SWAT officer shoots about a 40-50 on the test. Passing at the Basic level is 70 , Intermediate is 90 and Advanced (which only about 5% of people accomplish) is 110 or above. In the 40 years of the school only Bill Rogers himself, Rob Leatham, Manny Bragg, Gabe White, Kirk Clark and one or two other people have shot a 125. David Smith shot a 125 at Ronnie Dodd's Rogers Range in Sale Creek TN (Ronnie was at one time the chief instructor at Rogers and had a range installed at his house and David was his assistant). So in 40 years of SEAL teams, Army SF, FBI HRT, Police SWAT teams, Competition Shooters, etc etc travelling to Ellijay to shoot it only 7 or 8 people have shot a perfect score.

So William told the story about 3 police officers who were confident they would have no problem with it...after all they were the best shooters in their department. After the 1st day they were flabbergasted that they had only shot scores in the 30s. They didn't understand it because not only were they the best shooters in their department (qualification scores) but they were "the best shooters they had ever seen".....William told them "You boys should really get out more"....They had no idea what was possible because they had never been pushed to a serious time standard before and had never been around truly good shooters. Most police qual courses (Federal LE included) and essentially ALL state handgun carry permit course quals are not set up to make it HARD to pass. They are set up so that the mid level shooters WILL pass and the remedial shooters with some work CAN pass.

Now that obviously does not mean speed is the be all end all . But it means no matter how well you can shoot , if you cannot accomplish it in the time frame called for in the specific situation that you are involved in then you are not going to be successful. The faster you can get the work done the less likely you are to get killed while doing it.

I went to Rogers a few years back. You shoot the test everyday, twice on Thursday (?), so six runs, keeping your best score. I was FURIOUS that on day one I shot a 56. Billy Lumpkin (AI for our class, former Devgru) started laughing at me, and said, "You're fine. The average cop shoots 35ish on Day One." I ended up shooting a 109. Tough school.

Years before, when talking to Pat Rogers (no relation, RIP) about schools he recommended, he told me Rogers Shooting School was where he would send a relative that could only ever go to one class. I said, "That good?" He said, "Brother, I don't do much good, but I can shoot. I wanted to eat my gun by Wednesday."

 

[cedartop]

So I am going to tell a little story about an incident that just happened near me that shows what can happen if you do nothing right and then everything right on the same scenario. Names will not be used to protect the inept.

A call was put out for a domestic. 2 local officers (one was the chief) were close and responded. En route they were informed it was man with a gun call now. A deputy was also responding. The local officers arrived and spoke with the caller who told them the subject was armed and out back saying he would shoot anyone who came near.

Using no tactics they strolled into the back yard where they were immediately opened fire on with the younger officer being struck. The "chief" then returned fire shooting all 10 rounds from his compact while not hitting the suspect of course. The chief with no reload because hey, he is the chief, was now a sitting duck.

Fortunately for them the responding deputy was well equipped, well trained and on point. He showed up and hearing gunshots donned his plate carrier and radioed in shots fired. (Something the others had not done yet) He then made his way to the scene using appropriate cover and seeing the suspect fired four well aimed shots rapidly incapacitating the suspect.

Hopefully some lessons will be learned locally, but probably not.

 

[ECS686]

So I am going to tell a little story about an incident that just happened near me that shows what can happen if you do nothing right and then everything right on the same scenario. Names will not be used to protect the inept.

A call was put out for a domestic. 2 local officers (one was the chief) were close and responded. En route they were informed it was man with a gun call now. A deputy was also responding. The local officers arrived and spoke with the caller who told them the subject was armed and out back saying he would shoot anyone who came near.

Using no tactics they strolled into the back yard where they were immediately opened fire on with the younger officer being struck. The "chief" then returned fire shooting all 10 rounds from his compact while not hitting the suspect of course. The chief with no reload because hey, he is the chief, was now a sitting duck.

Fortunately for them the responding deputy was a well equipped, well trained and on point. He showed up and hearing gunshots donned his plate carrier and radioed in shots fired. (Something the others had not done yet) He then made his way to the scene using appropriate cover and seeing the suspect fired four well aimed shots rapidly incapacitating the suspect.

Hopefully some lessons will be learned locally, but probably not.

Not to change subject but sadly I know a Chile of a local small PD that refuses to wear a gun and stores it in his trunk.

Drive me crazy when I see him at public gatherings. With the war on Police Not sure if he is lazy or just stupid!

 

[KellyinAvon]

Not to change subject but sadly I know a Chile of a local small PD that refuses to wear a gun and stores it in his trunk.

Drive me crazy when I see him at public gatherings. With the war on Police Not sure if he is lazy or just stupid!

Wow I haven't seen a uniformed LEO without a handgun since I was a kid. Washington County Sheriff/Chief Deputy Clyde Nichols never carried a gun but that was 70s-80s.

Clyde Nichols was murdered in front of his church on Easter Sunday 1984.

 

[WebSnyper]

Not to change subject but sadly I know a Chile of a local small PD that refuses to wear a gun and stores it in his trunk.

Drive me crazy when I see him at public gatherings. With the war on Police Not sure if he is lazy or just stupid!

He's trying to make some sort of Andy Griffith type of statement.
Problem with that is Mayberry ain't Mayberry no more.

 

[ECS686]

He's trying to make some sort of Andy Griffith type of statement.
Problem with that is Mayberry ain't Mayberry no more.

Just an FYI the dude is a kid and barely 50 or not 45 yet.

 

[Randy Harris]

I went to Rogers a few years back. You shoot the test everyday, twice on Thursday (?), so six runs, keeping your best score. I was FURIOUS that on day one I shot a 56. Billy Lumpkin (AI for our class, former Devgru) started laughing at me, and said, "You're fine. The average cop shoots 35ish on Day One." I ended up shooting a 109. Tough school.

Years before, when talking to Pat Rogers (no relation, RIP) about schools he recommended, he told me Rogers Shooting School was where he would send a relative that could only ever go to one class. I said, "That good?" He said, "Brother, I don't do much good, but I can shoot. I wanted to eat my gun by Wednesday."

A good friend went to Rogers back in like 2005 or so. After day 1 he said he was seriously considering leaving because it was so difficult. Dave Harrington and Todd Louis Green (who both happened to also be students in the class ) and Bill Rogers talked him into staying and switching his Glock 21 he brought for a loaner Glock 17. He stayed and finished the class with a passing score on the last day.

He along with everyone else I know that had been to Rogers pestered me for years about when I was going to go. So I finally went and did the 3 day version of the class in 2015 . That one starts on Wednesday night and finishes on Saturday so you only get 4 chances at the test and no night shoot. I shot a 104 on the 1st test on Thursday and half jokingly told Ronnie Dodd (the Chief Instructor for the class) if it didn't get any better I was going to have to fake my own death because too many people knew that I was there and they were expecting me to come back with nothing less than an Advanced ranking. Fortunately for me I shot Advanced scores on the last 3 tests with a 115 as my highest score.