This is the mentality of the people we are dealing with.

[Ingomike]

I have taken to having a pocket edition of the BOR's and the constitution when I know there will be snow flakes about. A yellow hi-lighter as well.
When the discussion goes into full stupid I will hand them one of the 2 books and the hi-lighter. Instructions are to find said Stupid in the book and please hi-lite it for me as I have not read that part.

Great Idea. I'll copy that one.

M

 

[thunderchicken]

You are 100% correct church. The disconnect is in what to do before the kids start shooting. Teachers know the ones who maybe at risk to act, nothing can legally be done until the crime is committed. Our hands are tied by the gov mandating we continue to allow them full access to school regardless of their mental state.

Problem is where to draw the line and how to handle them after they have been identified as a risk.

I really feel for some of the students when I find out about their home life. Little can be done by law to mitigate the circumstances.

Don

First, I too agree with what CM said and you were referencing.
I wonder about some of the parents who are raising kids who are "wacked out". I wonder how involved the parents are and IF they are even willing or able to recognize their kid needs help and may have the potential to carry out such an act. IF the parents do recognize it and did nothing to secure firearms in the home, then we responsible gun owners should be even more angry.

Don- I would also agree that many teachers know who the kids most at risk to act are. And yes, there is a disconnect in what a school should be able to do in dealing with a kid who has been identified as a serious potential threat.
It makes me wonder how many of these kids who have carried out these vicious acts may have had an IEP set up with the school. Now, I could be wrong...but as I understand it a kid with an IEP has to be handled differently. And, in some cases a kid with an IEP may not be able to be expelled. Even if they have shown a violent tendency.

 

[MarkC]

First, I too agree with what CM said and you were referencing.
I wonder about some of the parents who are raising kids who are "wacked out". I wonder how involved the parents are and IF they are even willing or able to recognize their kid needs help and may have the potential to carry out such an act. IF the parents do recognize it and did nothing to secure firearms in the home, then we responsible gun owners should be even more angry.

Don- I would also agree that many teachers know who the kids most at risk to act are. And yes, there is a disconnect in what a school should be able to do in dealing with a kid who has been identified as a serious potential threat.
It makes me wonder how many of these kids who have carried out these vicious acts may have had an IEP set up with the school. Now, I could be wrong...but as I understand it a kid with an IEP has to be handled differently. And, in some cases a kid with an IEP may not be able to be expelled. Even if they have shown a violent tendency.

How much of this results from society's attempts over the last fifty years to make treatment for mental health kinder, less restrictive, and less stigmatizing? IEP's and "mainstreaming" of school children with developmental and behavioral issues forces the system to leave these kids in place, except for the most profoundly disturbed or incapable ones.

Deinstitutionalism, turning out many mental health patients, was initially thought to be kinder and more respectful of the institutionalized person's rights. Instead, we had a huge cadre of long-term homeless who cannot care for themselves, but cannot be placed in a more restrictive setting, in most cases. Sometimes it is done for fiscal savings, such as when Central State Hospital was closed.

This is a tough question; in the Soviet Union compulsory mental health commitments were used to dispose of enemies of the state. Like all restrictions on freedom, there is always the question of misuse. Consider how some anti-gun folks consider us mentally ill just because we enjoy owning and shooting our firearms.

We need to up our provision of mental health services; however, I fully recognize that I'm not the one who is smart enough to know where to put the line. Between the burgeoning opioid overuse problem (especially heroin) and this handful of acts of unspeakable violence against our youth, it is clear we need something. But what?

 

[chemteach]

First, I too agree with what CM said and you were referencing.
I wonder about some of the parents who are raising kids who are "wacked out". I wonder how involved the parents are and IF they are even willing or able to recognize their kid needs help and may have the potential to carry out such an act. IF the parents do recognize it and did nothing to secure firearms in the home, then we responsible gun owners should be even more angry.

Don- I would also agree that many teachers know who the kids most at risk to act are. And yes, there is a disconnect in what a school should be able to do in dealing with a kid who has been identified as a serious potential threat.
It makes me wonder how many of these kids who have carried out these vicious acts may have had an IEP set up with the school. Now, I could be wrong...but as I understand it a kid with an IEP has to be handled differently. And, in some cases a kid with an IEP may not be able to be expelled. Even if they have shown a violent tendency.

There are many reasons a student may have an IEP. Most have nothing to do with agressive or potentially dangerous behaviors. I'm betting if they had the type of testing they do now when I was a student, I would have been labeled "something this" or "something that". Too often the "Wacked Out" kids' parents don't recognize early warning signs because said parents are, at least, part of the reason the kid is emotionally unstable. I've had more than one conversation with counselors who were helping these EH kids (emotionally handicapped) cope, not only with school, but with home issues as well. Here's one case, no names. One of the EH counselors was required to make monthly home visits. Upon entering the home the counselor observed a large dog carcass on the living room floor. It was not fresh and appeared to have been lying there for several days. Many of these kids live in conditions that few adults could cope with, let alone a child. It's no wonder some of them don't act normal. They've never seen what normal looks like. It can truly break your heart.

 

[thunderchicken]

How much of this results from society's attempts over the last fifty years to make treatment for mental health kinder, less restrictive, and less stigmatizing? IEP's and "mainstreaming" of school children with developmental and behavioral issues forces the system to leave these kids in place, except for the most profoundly disturbed or incapable ones.

Deinstitutionalism, turning out many mental health patients, was initially thought to be kinder and more respectful of the institutionalized person's rights. Instead, we had a huge cadre of long-term homeless who cannot care for themselves, but cannot be placed in a more restrictive setting, in most cases. Sometimes it is done for fiscal savings, such as when Central State Hospital was closed.

This is a tough question; in the Soviet Union compulsory mental health commitments were used to dispose of enemies of the state. Like all restrictions on freedom, there is always the question of misuse. Consider how some anti-gun folks consider us mentally ill just because we enjoy owning and shooting our firearms.

We need to up our provision of mental health services; however, I fully recognize that I'm not the one who is smart enough to know where to put the line. Between the burgeoning opioid overuse problem (especially heroin) and this handful of acts of unspeakable violence against our youth, it is clear we need something. But what?

You make good points and I am not in position to argue any of them, as I agree. It's quite a tangled web at this point

 

[thunderchicken]

There are many reasons a student may have an IEP. Most have nothing to do with agressive or potentially dangerous behaviors. I'm betting if they had the type of testing they do now when I was a student, I would have been labeled "something this" or "something that". Too often the "Wacked Out" kids' parents don't recognize early warning signs because said parents are, at least, part of the reason the kid is emotionally unstable. I've had more than one conversation with counselors who were helping these EH kids (emotionally handicapped) cope, not only with school, but with home issues as well. Here's one case, no names. One of the EH counselors was required to make monthly home visits. Upon entering the home the counselor observed a large dog carcass on the living room floor. It was not fresh and appeared to have been lying there for several days. Many of these kids live in conditions that few adults could cope with, let alone a child. It's no wonder some of them don't act normal. They've never seen what normal looks like. It can truly break your heart.

While it is true that there are many reasons for a kid to have an IEP, and most have little or nothing to do with being violent.
I can also certainly recognize that there are a number of kids who have had to/are living in conditions most of us struggle to fathom. Further, what is a shame is just how F'd up some "parents" are and what they allow themselves to put kids through. And, I have often told others the same basic point you make about kids not understanding what "normal" is really like. Because if what they see/do daily is accepted as normal then they are to believe its ok...even though its not. Bad parenting.

What I was getting at (my highlighted quote) is a kid may have legitimate learning disabilities and have an IEP. But that same kid may be bullied for their disability to a point when maybe the kid fights back and becomes violent. If little ot nothing is done and the bullying continues how long before the kid becomes violent enough to go on attack instead of being defensive? That's where I was going. I'm just curious how deeply some of these kids have been pushed and how dire the home life they had before reaching the point of taking a gun to school and opening fire. Maybe if we knew more of the background info someone smarter than me/us could put the pieces together to create a realistic process to help prevent kids from reaching that point.

 

[chemteach]

I don't know if anybody can answer those questions. Every kid is different in terms of how they learn to cope with home problems, school problems, etc. If you have low self worth and you perceive the world as against you or maybe that you actually deserve some type of belittlement, I imagine that could throw any kid into a downward spiral. I don't think there's one equation you could fit every kid into that allows for a reliable picture into their present mental status, much less their future behaviors. But, I was trained and payed to teach kids Biology and Chemistry, not analyze them. Teachers are required to report abusive behaviors to the school administrators, counselors and social workers, people who are trained to help kids struggling with those types of issues.

 

[Mgderf]

I have an idea... let's reduce the deaths by automobiles by doing the following. 1. No license until 21. 2. Must renew license every 2 years by way of actual road test. 3. Auto must be inspected annually by State Police for both safety and emissions, if fail then removed from road immediately! 3. Must be stored in locked garage to prevent theft. 4. May not be loaned to any other person. 5. Breath and Bio Interlock on all autos to prevent operation while intoxicated. That should reduce the 35,000 annual deaths by auto. Then sit back and listen to the hoards scream about their rights, non-constitutional privileges by the way!

Let's add to that, a program that disables all communications devices while operating a motor vehicle.
I'm sure the O.P. would have no problems with that either...

 

[Libertarian01]

Here is a great article that points out many of the problems with trying to deter mass shootings.

Every solution to mass shootings inevitably involves a serious trade-off

At the core of the issue is that no matter what we do we'll be trampling on a right somehow! We (INGO) take offense to trampling the 2nd, but some of us might not have a problem with trampling free speech a little or due process. The problem is that those are someone elses red lines.

I've thought about this a bit since the last shooting and I honestly don't believe it is a mental health issue at all. Adam Lanza was autistic, but almost no one on the autism scale does this. Every shooter we see has some sort of mental health issue but the reality is that most folks have suffered those problems and don't go boom. I'm no expert but I don't believe most people with mental health issues cause deadly harm to others. Rather, these poor souls suffer in silence or hidden away as homeless that we all pass by every day not even knowing their plight or struggle. They do no significant harm to anyone.

What I see as the more basic problem is that we have broken down as a society. There are no real familial support structures like there were even a few decades ago. A child who suffers at school does so without true friends to talk to, in person. They Facebook and snapchat and text, but actual bonding? It isn't there. As for family, or so called parental units? Both are out working and trying to pay bills as our economy has driven us toward a two (2) income home being almost required to live a middle classed lifestyle. It is mostly a family with a large income breadwinner that can afford to have a stay at home parent. So what started in the 60's and 70's as latchkey kids has been blown up on steroids. Todays children don't have friends (as our generation knew it) and don't have parents that provide a stable support structure.

I'm not trying to slam parents, but it is the situation itself that I blame. Mental heath? We've all had days that I'm very certain we could have been clinically diagnosed as depressed, or our anxiety was too high. The difference is that we had a social support structure to help us through our dark times. These youth today have no such support structure, or IF they do it has been weakened by the very society in which they live and the technology that mimics but doesn't duplicate true friendship.

Sadly, there is no solution to this without a massive paradigm shift on our part as a society. However, for that to happen would require most folks to look hard and deep, recognize the problem, and be willing to make tremendous effort to fix it. Yeah, right...

Regards,

Doug

PS - See you next Saturday at Winamac, in person, as a friend!

 

[Nazgul]

First, I too agree with what CM said and you were referencing.
I wonder about some of the parents who are raising kids who are "wacked out". I wonder how involved the parents are and IF they are even willing or able to recognize their kid needs help and may have the potential to carry out such an act. IF the parents do recognize it and did nothing to secure firearms in the home, then we responsible gun owners should be even more angry.

Don- I would also agree that many teachers know who the kids most at risk to act are. And yes, there is a disconnect in what a school should be able to do in dealing with a kid who has been identified as a serious potential threat.
It makes me wonder how many of these kids who have carried out these vicious acts may have had an IEP set up with the school. Now, I could be wrong...but as I understand it a kid with an IEP has to be handled differently. And, in some cases a kid with an IEP may not be able to be expelled. Even if they have shown a violent tendency.

You are correct. If you read the state's instructions on IEPs it specifically says how they are handled. It is very difficult to expel or mandate psych help for a student with an IEP. The whole point of an IEP is to identify a need and help them.

Most of the students I see are ok, just got out of line a little. Heck, most of us did back then. Get them in the room, no cell phone, sit in a desk and start working. I try to get to what the issue is when they calm down.

Sometimes there is an element that you can't reach. It can be spooky, still I like to try to help them.

On a positive note: I had 32 of the rougher guys one day, the Diesel Tech program was not on that day. These are the fun loving redneck kids. My kind of boys. Have to watch them every minute, but good kids.

When the Pledge of Allegiance came on the intercom, they stood up, removed their hats and recited it in a respectful manner. Almost made me tear up.

Don

 

[Nazgul]

What I see as the more basic problem is that we have broken down as a society. There are no real familial support structures like there were even a few decades ago. A child who suffers at school does so without true friends to talk to, in person. They Facebook and snapchat and text, but actual bonding?


This is my take on it as well. They develop "Digital Personalities" that are out of touch with reality. Try taking a cell phone away for a day. Some have melt downs that tell more about their make up than I like to see.

Don