Vet my gunshop info, please.

[IndianaResident]

Stopping into a gun store today, and walked away with disconcerting information, tempered by some healthy skepticism. This particular FFL holder also happens to hold a manufacturer license. I'll tell you what I was told first, then follow on with my thought processes.

1) AR lower receivers are, by serial number given to the ATF, pistol or rifle lowers

2) AR pistol lowers must be engraved with "pistol"

3) FTF sales are limited to 1 per 24 hour period

4) AR-15 builds are limited to 1 per year

5) Sale with intent to profit is a crime

I set about to research the first two myself, and disproved them to myself already. I called Rock River and Spike's, and both said they only sell stripped lowers that are neither pistols nor rifles until they are built such initially, by attaching a stock or rifled barrel action. Stripped lowers should be transferred as "other" on the 4473 to avoid having it labeled as either until you decide to build. I was able to find other ATF letters online agreeing with this. (but obviously cannot actually guarantee their authenticity. I am not discussing the portion of the 2nd letter that discusses the irrelevance of a stock in establishing a rifle)
Letter 1, pg 1
Letter 1, pg 2
Letter 2, pg 1
Letter 2, pg 2
Further, the word engraving of pistol is simply misinformation, or a comfort for those that need it. This particular fact I could not confirm officially from any source, but found many, many internet guru's claiming it was for comfort and to increase profits by charging more for pistol marked lowers. In support of this argument I found many example of individuals creating unmarked AR-pistols that were later turned into SBRs (by adding proper receiver extension and stock), and that having pistol mark on an SBR was both silly and inaccurate.

Points 3 and 4 are my biggest questions. I do not believe either one, but cannot disprove either, so am turning to my compatriots here to help.
I do want to weigh in with an example of private party sellers at gun shows who do not get fined or arrested, and whom I see at repeat shows, which seem to disagree with #3. The FFL holder gave an example of an individual who bought a shotgun and sold a rifle and was a arrested at the a prior 1500.
#4 I have no information on other than I just bought a gaggle of stripped lowers and am therefore curious for more verifiable Word?

#5 is the one I happen to agree with, in that buying and selling firearms to make a profit, without being an FFL holder, sounds illegal due to the likelihood of straw purchases. However, it is also capitalism, or at least free market, and I suspect there may more more gray area to it than I am currently aware of.
I want to reference the aforementioned gunshow arrest. Though we don't know any details about it, the FFL holder said that individual was charged with "Selling with Intent to make a Profit". It seems to me that as long as someone is not buying the gun from an FFL, and asks the proper questions (felon, IN resident, age) they should be able to turn around and sell the gun as soon as they please, for as much as they please. Is Slick Joe committing a crime (legal, not moral) when he buys an immaculate 1912 1911 for $100 from Backwoods Bubba, then sells it for for a small fortune an hour later? How about a week, month, or year later?
Even from an FFL, how is this information selected? Is there a time a gun must be held before it is no longer considered "selling for profit" or a straw purchase, rather than just not liking that particular weapon, or wanting something new?

I'm hoping for discussion, but would really like to see information backed by other sources. I have plenty of unsupported opinion in me already

Obligatory disclaimers:
I'm not looking to discuss how FFL holders are not automatic repositories of encyclopedic levels of accurate information, nor to compare them to ATF or LEO's who may or may not know every nuance of the law.
I'm also not posting this to call out a particular shop, everybody makes mistakes (or doesn't, as the jury will decide)
I'm not looking for a lecture of being informed, gullible, or who to get advice from, and I am especially not looking for a thread full of "what should be" and "2nd amendment say..."
I agree, but I want to talk about what is, not what should be.


Phew...here goes everything. Submit New Thread.

 

[Westside]

 

[MrSmitty]

I should be good to go, I never seem to make a profit on selling guns!!!!!, 1 FTF a day?....where'd you gofor this info, Don's?

 

[WebSnyper]

Regarding #5, an excerpt from: http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

The term “dealer” is defined at 18
U.S.C. § 921(a)(11)(A) to include any
person engaged in the business of
selling firearms at wholesale or retail.
The term “engaged in the business”
as applied to a dealer in firearms
means a person who devotes time,
attention, and labor to dealing in firearms
as a regular course of trade or
business with the principal objective
of livelihood and profit through the
repetitive purchase and resale of firearms.
A dealer can be “engaged in
the business” without taking title to
the firearms that are sold. However,
the term does not include a person
who makes occasional sales, exchanges,
or purchases of firearms for
the enhancement of a personal collection
or for a hobby, or who sells all
or part of his personal collection of
firearms. 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(21)(C).

 

[Bill B]

It is illegal to engage in a firearms business without an FFL. I highly doubt that selling a firearm at profit would ever raise anyones eyebrows, but selling one a week would probably get you investigated.
As far as the AR build, I can find nothing on the ATF page about it...

 

[WebSnyper]

As far as the AR build, I can find nothing on the ATF page about it...

Nor can I. I am not aware of a limit, but I suspect the real issue would/could be what you do with them. Are you building them to keep/sell, and if it is to sell, does the number of them you sell make you a dealer? Or are you building them as a hobby? That I suspect would be what would need to be answered.

 

[NathanJefferson]

Maybe he was confused - There is no limit on how many lowers you can assemble. A serialed lower you bought through an FFL *IS* a gun. You are just adding parts to it.

There MAY be a limit on the number of lowers you can MAKE - you are legally allowed to take a hunk of steel and machine it into a lower then build that into a rifle. I believe there are additional restrictions on a 'from scratch' gun than from a manufactured one.

Might have gotten that confused, as I could see machining your own lowers for resale being a big no no.

 

[flatlander]

I highly doubt that selling a firearm at profit would ever raise anyones eyebrows,

It would raise MY eyebrows if I ever made a profit

Bob

 

[confused89]

I think I have been in that store as I have heard similar things come out of a store employees mouth and I have only heard this at one gun store.

 

[IndianaResident]

Any more intel on this stuff? I still haven't found anything about this 24 hour jive.

 

[sepe]

Were you in a gun shop in Warsaw? The owner gave me 1-4 with a modification to 1 (he said he got around the issue so he didn't have to have them engraved pistol). As far as #4, he told me it was 1 in a lifetime. #3 he tried telling me was illegal no matter what (no time period or anything). When I started correcting him, he started the "well...." and staring off into space bit.

 

[shooter521]

FOS on all points, AFAIK.

 

[blamecharles]

FOS on all points, AFAIK.

I agree, I am still pretty new to firearms ownership but 99% of the statements from this FFL sound 100% FOS.