What are you trying to accomplish?

[cedartop]

Seeing a post from Greg Ellefritz about failing the No Fail Drill, and then seeing a reel on Instagram from Matt Pranka from XRay Alpha asking would you rather be the shooter who can shoot 100's on B-8's at 25 or the guy who can shoot doubles at 25 with .2 splits keeping them in the Alpha highlighted a couple of different approaches. What makes it more interesting is that both of these guys, Chuck Pressburg, and Matt Pranka have similar military backgrounds but different opinions about which way to go on this subject. I realize some of you will say both, and in a perfect world I agree, but that is unrealistic for most. Heck either or is probably unrealistic for most.

I will try to link the XRay Alpha post here but if you don't have Instagram I am not sure if you can see it, I don't really know how all of that social media crap works.

 

[jsharmon7]

Option #2.

I’m more concerned with performing from a self-defense standpoint, so I want to get accurate shots on target before the other guy.

 

[cedartop]

Option #2.

I’m more concerned with performing from a self-defense standpoint, so I want to get accurate shots on target before the other guy.

I think that it is a little clear cut when doing B-8 vs. Doubles. How about No Fail drill vs. Doubles? (And all of the mindset that accompanies both)

 

[Tactically Fat]

I don't like strict binary decisions.

 

[cedartop]

I don't like strict binary decisions.

I didn't realize you were one of those.

Anyway I share the sentiment and in reality much of these accomplishments (USPSA Grandmaster, Bianchi Cup champion, Delta Operator, etc.) are beyond most of us anyway. There can be a big difference in philosophy even at the lower levels.

I don't know if you followed the USPSA carry optics Nationals this year, but it was a stacked field. Lots of good shooters. The guy who won the Bill Drill side match (1.27 seconds) did not finish all that well in the overall. When talking in a podcast with John Scoutten he felt that defensive shooters like him have a better shot at something like that due to the nature of their training. Of course even if not finishing well just being a GM puts him in the 95th percentile.

 

[ECS686]

I didn't realize you were one of those.

Anyway I share the sentiment and in reality much of these accomplishments (USPSA Grandmaster, Bianchi Cup champion, Delta Operator, etc.) are beyond most of us anyway. There can be a big difference in philosophy even at the lower levels.

I don't know if you followed the USPSA carry optics Nationals this year, but it was a stacked field. Lots of good shooters. The guy who won the Bill Drill side match (1.27 seconds) did not finish all that well in the overall. When talking in a podcast with John Scoutten he felt that defensive shooters like him have a better shot at something like that due to the nature of their training. Of course even if not finishing well just being a GM puts him in the 95th percentile.

People get way to wrapped around the axel about split times. While no disrespect there’s a big difference between an offensive military assault and a robbery/civilian scenario.

I stand by the belief (because I have seen some real deal assaults and a couple shootings) that if you can maintain accurate hits at a 1/2 second pace you will be fine if you ever are ever in a situation. Anything faster if you even hit in that 3x5 thoracic heart aortic area you can’t assess any faster that whole reactionary gap works in a couple different ways. Short of a brain stem or CNS hit Just going cyclic will not make the results happen any faster!

 

[cedartop]

People get way to wrapped around the axel about split times. While no disrespect there’s a big difference between an offensive military assault and a robbery/civilian scenario.

I stand by the belief (because I have seen some real deal assaults and a couple shootings) that if you can maintain accurate hits at a 1/2 second pace you will be fine if you ever are ever in a situation. Anything faster if you even hit in that 3x5 thoracic heart aortic area you can’t assess any faster that whole reactionary gap works in a couple different ways. Short of a brain stem or CNS hit Just going cyclic will not make the results happen any faster!

I won't argue your point, at least from a strictly defensive standpoint, a lot of people I respect have the same viewpoint. I used to be more in that line of thinking but I currently am more along the lines of a performance shooter. I would rather be able to operate at the highest level humanely possible and then slow down if the situation warranted it, than do like we see in a lot of videos and throw a burst or mag dump and not hit anything. I believe that if you haven't trained to shoot well at speed and a situation is thrust upon you and because of stress, or whatever, you shoot at speeds you are unfamiliar with, you are likely to not hit anything. Not only that, I just prefer to be better.

 

[ECS686]

I won't argue your point, at least from a strictly defensive standpoint, a lot of people I respect have the same viewpoint. I used to be more in that line of thinking but I currently am more along the lines of a performance shooter. I would rather be able to operate at the highest level humanely possible and then slow down if the situation warranted it, than do like we see in a lot of videos and throw a burst or mag dump and not hit anything. I believe that if you haven't trained to shoot well at speed and the a situation is thrust upon you and because of stress, or whatever, you shoot at speeds you are unfamiliar with, you are likely to not hit anything. Not only that, I just prefer to be better.

True. The performance based or Technical shooters are great at running guns. I use to be into thenUSPSA thing. As such One example from that (and we all have been there if we admit it or not) you try to run too fast in a stage at a USPSA match. Just how many will admit they had a Charlie Mike at a 3 yard target?!?!?

 

[Il Capo Di Tutti Capo]

Just how many will admit they had a Charlie Mike at a 3 yard target?!?!?

I will

The problem, as I see it, is that many shooters cannot wrap their head around the fact that in order to get better one has to repeatedly push beyond what one is capable of doing correctly and then self-reflect/anaylize why things fell off the rails in order to fix them. Many trainers (civ, le, and mil) fall in this camp too.

Many also can't understand or won't accept that tactics and marksmanship/gun handling are two completely different things and should be trained separately up to a point.

To compound the problem most instructors do not understand the difference between a drill and a test. They almost always confuse the two and that confusion severely stunts growth as a shooter. Think of the casino drill...too much **** going on to get good at anything unless you burn buckets of ammo every day. The casino drill isn't a drill. It's a test.

Drill isolate a particular skill and DRILL it repeatedly until it is mastered. You can drill draws in isolation from reloads. You can drill transitions in isolation from trigger presses. Your brain puts it all together come crunch time.

It's how we get better.

And to answer the original question......I agree with Pranka.

 

[ECS686]

I will

The problem, as I see it, is that many shooters cannot wrap their head around the fact that in order to get better one has to repeatedly push beyond what one is capable of doing correctly and then self-reflect/anaylize why things fell off the rails in order to fix them. Many trainers (civ, le, and mil) fall in this camp too.

Many also can't understand or won't accept that tactics and marksmanship/gun handling are two completely different things and should be trained separately up to a point.

To compound the problem most instructors do not understand the difference between a drill and a test. They almost always confuse the two and that confusion severely stunts growth as a shooter. Think of the casino drill...too much **** going on to get good at anything unless you burn buckets of ammo every day. The casino drill isn't a drill. It's a test.

Drill isolate a particular skill and DRILL it repeatedly until it is mastered. You can drill draws in isolation from reloads. You can drill transitions in isolation from trigger presses. Your brain puts it all together come crunch time.

It's how we get better.

And to answer the original question......I agree with Pranka.

Funny sort of related thing. A fellow firearms instructor at my former agency who like many of us was into firearms and shooting had zero clue there was a local USPSA club. I shot at that club regularly since the mid 990’s when I moved back here.

He ate it up had some fun.

Fast forward, I have gotten Range Master IDC and been to a couple Spaulding and Lee Weems classes since retirement to improve my own instructor and overall abilities.

Where it’s related to this thread, i have had him shoot the Bakersfield, and many Range Master drill of the months. Dude is ADHD sometimes and vapor locks when he has to do any drill where there is thinking involved. I haven’t told him about the casino drill but already have an idea how that is gonna go. It’s going to be an aneurysm on the spot.

I agree drills and pushing the envelope make one better. However, I also like to have courses/drills where assessment and not knowing when, if or can you shout are not known until the moment of!

Why I’m partial to completely blind stages in CCW matches and etc. to me those are a true all around “test” of one’s complete proficiency!

So learn to run a gun fast, but learn/condition to not run it faster than you can assess if that sort of makes sense?!?!

 

[TWalker]

I agree with you. Tactics are more important than marksmanship, to a point, like everything else there are no absolutes.

I think I'm leaning with the B8 guy. When you're getting robbed you'll never be faster than a drawn gun. We've seen several situations where movement and accuracy are more important. I'm thinking of active shooter scenarios, malls/churches/etc.

At the same time how often are people shooting at someone not paying attention? Active shooters and ambushes.

Without going on a tangent about SA and physical preparedness for an adrenaline dump ya de ya. Like the guy above me said. Gunfighting is a thinking man's game and you think better when you're calm/lower heart rate.

Now I'm rambling. My vote is B8 guy!

 

[cedartop]

I thought this was excellent and came at an opportune time.

I have been focused on performance shooting for almost 30 years now, and the training industry seems to be warming to the idea. Is that a good thing?

For over 40 years almost all high-level shooting technique and training has resulted from competition. IPSC kicked it off and then Steel Challenge, Bianchi Cup, Sportsmans Team Challenge and others contributed. Today, most of the highest-speed shooting comes from USPSA, but is it still relevant?

https://pistol-training.com/performance-shooting/

 

[BehindBlueI's]

So learn to run a gun fast, but learn/condition to not run it faster than you can assess if that sort of makes sense?!?!

IMO, it's much easier to learn to shoot faster than you can make your way through the OODA loop than vice versa. Particularly if you don't have access to realistic simunition drills and scenarios assuming you aren't routinely in real gunfights.