What's the deal with deer legal rifle calibers?

[AtlasDM]

So, I'm not a rifle guy but I've been looking in to it and I was wondering if anyone knows what the deal is with the legal calibers for deer hunting. Why does IDNR insist on making us use rifles chambered in such odd calibers?

I don't see any reasoning for restricting what I would consider 'real' rifle calibers from being used. It just seems I have to buy an over-priced gun that doesn't perform as well as the common hunting rifles used by the rest of the country and ammo for it costs an arm and a leg.

Any answers?

Where do I have to go to get the ball rolling on having such a ridiculous hunting regulation changed?

 

[patience0830]

just buy an Encore pistol in the rifle caliber of your choice, .243 or larger, and hunt away. Perfectly legal.

 

[shooter521]

I don't see any reasoning for restricting what I would consider 'real' rifle calibers from being used.

Because the people who make the rules have never spent a day in the woods or killed a real animal, nor listened to the counsel of those who have?

 

[rotortech]

Not that big a deal. Just use a shotgun and ignore the PCR calibers altogether. That was the only option until the PCR rifles were allowed. It's a bit of a compromise but at least there are choices now.

 

[rimfire_crazed]

I have plenty of explanations, some of which have come directly from C.O's and resource managers working for the DNR but when I've brought them up in the past, they were roundly insulted. I'm not saying I agree with them but I do understand *some* of the thought behind the restrictions.

 

[AtlasDM]

I have plenty of explanations, some of which have come directly from C.O's and resource managers working for the DNR but when I've brought them up in the past, they were roundly insulted. I'm not saying I agree with them but I do understand *some* of the thought behind the restrictions.

Message me about it sometime if you don't mind. I'm not one to insult so no worries there.

I just think the current rules are senseless. I'd love to get some insight as to what the DNR has going on in their heads. Maybe it wouldn't bother me as much if I knew why.

 

[Skip]

See, I am from the complete other side of the equation......W I L D C A T !!

Take the regulations, make them work for you. I reload so, the cost of ammo is of small consequence to me. I reload for EVERYTHING, and EVERY purpose that I own a gun for.

There are lots of modified standard calibers that are afield now too. .45/70 cut to 1.800" and someone will be producing ammo that can be purchased soon. The short 35 Remington and 35 Winchester, lots of options.

Look at the wild cat field of calibers. I chose the 358WSSM. I get a bullet that is 200gr that travels right at 2550fps and is easily a 300 yard gun.

FWIW

 

[Broom_jm]

This thread attempts to explain the history of the various regulations Indiana has used for firearms that can be carried for hunting deer. It also covers many of the arguments, for and against.

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...tory_of_deer_hunting_firearms_in_indiana.html

 

[kludge]

It just seems I have to buy an over-priced gun that doesn't perform as well as the common hunting rifles used by the rest of the country and ammo for it costs an arm and a leg.

My .358 WSSM duplicates handloaded .358 Winchester performance (and exceeds the Winchester 200gr factory load) and goes ~300fps faster than the .35 Remington. I'm shooting a 200gr bullet at 2525 fps, which is the same muzzle energy as a 30-06. It is a legitimate 250yard elk rifle and 300 yard deer rifle. MPBR (+/- 3") is 235 yards and is 12"-13" below line of sight at 300 yards.

The 1.8" .358 WSM exceeds the .35 Whelen's performance, making it a ~350-400 yard elk rifle.

There is no lack of performance with these rifles, and the cost really isn't that bad. Take a $450 WSM rifle, put on a $300 custom barrel on it (assuming you get a finished barrel from one of the Wildcat makers), get reloading dies for $170 and total cost is $920. That's well within what many people spend on a hunting rifle.

My ammo doesn't cost any more than any other ammo I would reload. I formed the brass from standard .25 WSSM brass. Sure brass costs a little more that .308 brass, but the 100 pieces I have will probably last the rest of my life. I use cheap Hornady and Sierra bullets and shoot 0.4 to 0.7 MOA. I could reload Nosler or Barnes bullets for $1 a shot, but that's still much less expensive than buying factory loads with the same bullets.

Is $1,000 too much $$$?

Get a Marlin .35 Rem lever action and trim the brass. Reload. Done.

Still too much $$$?

Get a single shot H&R .357 Mag rifle and ream it to .357 Maximum for the same ballistics as the .35 Rem.

Or find a .357 Herrett barrel for your Contender/Encore.

All legitimate 200 yard deer rifles.

 

[Broom_jm]

My .358 WSSM duplicates handloaded .358 Winchester performance (and exceeds the Winchester 200gr factory load) and goes ~300fps faster than the .35 Remington. I'm shooting a 200gr bullet at 2525 fps, which is the same muzzle energy as a 30-06. It is a legitimate 250yard elk rifle and 300 yard deer rifle. MPBR (+/- 3") is 235 yards and is 12"-13" below line of sight at 300 yards.

The 1.8" .358 WSM exceeds the .35 Whelen's performance, making it a ~350-400 yard elk rifle.

There is no lack of performance with these rifles, and the cost really isn't that bad. Take a $450 WSM rifle, put on a $300 custom barrel on it (assuming you get a finished barrel from one of the Wildcat makers), get reloading dies for $170 and total cost is $920. That's well within what many people spend on a hunting rifle.

My ammo doesn't cost any more than any other ammo I would reload. I formed the brass from standard .25 WSSM brass. Sure brass costs a little more that .308 brass, but the 100 pieces I have will probably last the rest of my life. I use cheap Hornady and Sierra bullets and shoot 0.4 to 0.7 MOA. I could reload Nosler or Barnes bullets for $1 a shot, but that's still much less expensive than buying factory loads with the same bullets.

Is $1,000 too much $$$?

Get a Marlin .35 Rem lever action and trim the brass. Reload. Done.

Still too much $$$?

Get a single shot H&R .357 Mag rifle and ream it to .357 Maximum for the same ballistics as the .35 Rem.

Or find a .357 Herrett barrel for your Contender/Encore.

All legitimate 200 yard deer rifles.

Want more performance, on the cheap?

Get a single shot H&R .357 Mag rifle, ream it to 35 Remington and cut a rim counter-bore so you can use trimmed 303 British or 30/40 Krag brass. You get very close to 358 Win. ballistics at a rock-bottom price, PLUS you can shoot factory ammo or sell it as a 35 Remington, if you ever want to get rid of it.

 

[Adrian8]

Own an AR 15 rifle?..Buy the .450 Bushmaster upper, another 200 yd gun with ammo available at stores for $30.00.

 

[D.R.C 2]

450 bushmaster is an extremely accurate, deadly load.

 

[antsi]

My .358 WSSM duplicates handloaded .358 Winchester performance (and exceeds the Winchester 200gr factory load) and goes ~300fps faster than the .35 Remington. I'm shooting a 200gr bullet at 2525 fps, which is the same muzzle energy as a 30-06. It is a legitimate 250yard elk rifle and 300 yard deer rifle. MPBR (+/- 3") is 235 yards and is 12"-13" below line of sight at 300 yards.

The 1.8" .358 WSM exceeds the .35 Whelen's performance, making it a ~350-400 yard elk rifle.

There is no lack of performance with these rifles, and the cost really isn't that bad. Take a $450 WSM rifle, put on a $300 custom barrel on it (assuming you get a finished barrel from one of the Wildcat makers), get reloading dies for $170 and total cost is $920. That's well within what many people spend on a hunting rifle.

My ammo doesn't cost any more than any other ammo I would reload. I formed the brass from standard .25 WSSM brass. Sure brass costs a little more that .308 brass, but the 100 pieces I have will probably last the rest of my life. I use cheap Hornady and Sierra bullets and shoot 0.4 to 0.7 MOA. I could reload Nosler or Barnes bullets for $1 a shot, but that's still much less expensive than buying factory loads with the same bullets.

Is $1,000 too much $$$?

Get a Marlin .35 Rem lever action and trim the brass. Reload. Done.

Still too much $$$?

Get a single shot H&R .357 Mag rifle and ream it to .357 Maximum for the same ballistics as the .35 Rem.

Or find a .357 Herrett barrel for your Contender/Encore.

All legitimate 200 yard deer rifles.

All well and good, sure.
But is this really serving the state's interests?
Your .358 is surely an effective round for deer, but it is a bit more of an investment of time, expertise, and money than most entry-level hunters are going to be able to put forth.

Your costs don't sound too bad, but in regular rifle-legal states, you could pick up a Moisin-Nagant for $69, buy a box of soft points for $25, and be reasonably well equipped for deer hunting for under $100.

I keep hearing how we are short of deer hunters in this state, and we need more people out there hunting to manage our populations.
If that's so, I don't see why we're setting things up to favor exotic calibers, custom gunsmithing, wildcat handloading, and all that entails.

Now the DNR is attacking the problem by, instead of allowing people to hunt more with the weapons they already have or can easily obtain, they are adding a new Extended Trebuchet Season, and Primitve Bow Season (get out there and practice with your flint-tipped feather-fletched arrows and gut-strung longbows, folks!).

 

[Skip]

All well and good, sure.
But is this really serving the state's interests?
Your .358 is surely an effective round for deer, but it is a bit more of an investment of time, expertise, and money than most entry-level hunters are going to be able to put forth.

Your costs don't sound too bad, but in regular rifle-legal states, you could pick up a Moisin-Nagant for $69, buy a box of soft points for $25, and be reasonably well equipped for deer hunting for under $100.

I keep hearing how we are short of deer hunters in this state, and we need more people out there hunting to manage our populations.
If that's so, I don't see why we're setting things up to favor exotic calibers, custom gunsmithing, wildcat handloading, and all that entails.

Now the DNR is attacking the problem by, instead of allowing people to hunt more with the weapons they already have or can easily obtain, they are adding a new Extended Trebuchet Season, and Primitve Bow Season (get out there and practice with your flint-tipped feather-fletched arrows and gut-strung longbows, folks!).

It isn't an answer for everyone BUT, for some of us, since this is another facet of our hobby, GUNS, we like to push the limit.

For me, and I can only speak for me, I find the ability to craft ammunition for this wildcat round that develops a bit more than the .30/06 from my loadings and can put them all inside a 1" or less circle at 100 yards to be very rewarding. Then, add the two deer taken this year with my loads, one in the wife's .358WSSM and one with mine, and I am almost beside myself.

Can you do it cheaper? Sure. What is the point in that? So can everyone else that has an extra $100, to use your analogy. I have been able to do something they cannot do, yet.
I am building a whole other skill set and that is why I like dealing with the extra costs involved with working on a wildcat.

Just another view point on the same issue.
Not every Tom, Dick and Harry are going to see it my way, let them go buy the Mosey of their choice, have fun and be happy, just like the other thousand upon thousand upon thousands of folks do all across the country.

I'll cast my lot with these extreme nuts that are just like me!

 

[redneckmedic]

(Thead Jack) Please show me where I can buy a $69 Mosin... not that I don't get your point /jack

 

[antsi]

It isn't an answer for everyone BUT, for some of us, since this is another facet of our hobby, GUNS, we like to push the limit.

For me, and I can only speak for me, I find the ability to craft ammunition for this wildcat round that develops a bit more than the .30/06 from my loadings and can put them all inside a 1" or less circle at 100 yards to be very rewarding. Then, add the two deer taken this year with my loads, one in the wife's .358WSSM and one with mine, and I am almost beside myself.

Can you do it cheaper? Sure. What is the point in that? So can everyone else that has an extra $100, to use your analogy. I have been able to do something they cannot do, yet.
I am building a whole other skill set and that is why I like dealing with the extra costs involved with working on a wildcat.

Just another view point on the same issue.
Not every Tom, Dick and Harry are going to see it my way, let them go buy the Mosey of their choice, have fun and be happy, just like the other thousand upon thousand upon thousands of folks do all across the country.

I'll cast my lot with these extreme nuts that are just like me!

I'm probably more on your side of the aisle - but from the standpoint of state policy, if they're trying to get more hunters, they should probably create rules that accommodate a wider variety of people. Nothing wrong with what you're doing, but if they'd open up the rules a bit they might get more hunters in the field.

 

[avboiler11]

Because of the small yet exceedingly vocal bowhunt mafia, who spreads FUD about a "Wild West" scenario leaving a trail of innocent human blood should Hoosiers be allowed to use traditional centerfire rifles.

Despite nothing of the sort happening south of the Ohio River in Kentucky, or in the fast flat plains from North Dakota down through Texas hill country.

...because we can't have more hunters in the woods that aren't as dedicated as THEY are, going after THEIR deer...can we?

 

[kludge]

All well and good, sure.
But is this really serving the state's interests?
Your .358 is surely an effective round for deer, but it is a bit more of an investment of time, expertise, and money than most entry-level hunters are going to be able to put forth.

Your costs don't sound too bad, but in regular rifle-legal states, you could pick up a Moisin-Nagant for $69, buy a box of soft points for $25, and be reasonably well equipped for deer hunting for under $100.

I keep hearing how we are short of deer hunters in this state, and we need more people out there hunting to manage our populations.
If that's so, I don't see why we're setting things up to favor exotic calibers, custom gunsmithing, wildcat handloading, and all that entails.

Now the DNR is attacking the problem by, instead of allowing people to hunt more with the weapons they already have or can easily obtain, they are adding a new Extended Trebuchet Season, and Primitve Bow Season (get out there and practice with your flint-tipped feather-fletched arrows and gut-strung longbows, folks!).

I agree. If I could hunt with my dad's sporterized M1903 I would. And it would have been free!

It's been a while. Good to see a post from you!

 

[Broom_jm]

All well and good, sure.
But is this really serving the state's interests?
Your .358 is surely an effective round for deer, but it is a bit more of an investment of time, expertise, and money than most entry-level hunters are going to be able to put forth.

Your costs don't sound too bad, but in regular rifle-legal states, you could pick up a Moisin-Nagant for $69, buy a box of soft points for $25, and be reasonably well equipped for deer hunting for under $100.

I keep hearing how we are short of deer hunters in this state, and we need more people out there hunting to manage our populations.
If that's so, I don't see why we're setting things up to favor exotic calibers, custom gunsmithing, wildcat handloading, and all that entails.

Now the DNR is attacking the problem by, instead of allowing people to hunt more with the weapons they already have or can easily obtain, they are adding a new Extended Trebuchet Season, and Primitve Bow Season (get out there and practice with your flint-tipped feather-fletched arrows and gut-strung longbows, folks!).

I'm probably more on your side of the aisle - but from the standpoint of state policy, if they're trying to get more hunters, they should probably create rules that accommodate a wider variety of people. Nothing wrong with what you're doing, but if they'd open up the rules a bit they might get more hunters in the field.

Where to begin?

A wildcat is a greater investment of expertise, and the time needed to achieve such, but for someone who already reloads, it is a modest additional learning curve. You're making far too much of that aspect than is realistic.

In regular rifle states, folks "could" buy a cheap 91/30 and some soft-point ammo, but do they? Nah, they spend a bit more money and buy a better quality gun, usually with a scope that lets them shoot out to a fair distance. Interesting analogy, but it doesn't hold much water, either.

Short of deer hunters? Indiana has solid hunter recruitment, along with record, or near-record harvests, for the past decade. Not coincidentally, deer numbers have been climbing, due to mild winters, and the PCR regulations give folks a kinder, gentler way to get out there and hunt with a long gun. Furthermore, the regulations actually favor a very simple solution to recruiting new hunters. They don't mandate wildcats, they actually encourage the use of single-shot or lever-action rifles in straight-walled cartridges like 44 and 357 Magnum. Your perception is clearly skewed by the enthusiasm of a select few wildcat nutjobs...like me!

They HAVE opened up the rules, but to your point, they could have very easily gone one step further and specifically INCLUDED the 35 Remington and 30/30 Winchester rounds. They adhere to the same basic short/medium range philosophy, but make it even easier/cheaper for folks to get into deer hunting with a gun that won't beat them senseless.

In other words, you have some valid concerns, but they are already being addressed, for the most part.