Where is the line between selling privately and needing to get an FFL?

[THE BIG SITT]

Let's say you buy a gun for a good price, knowing you can flip it for some money. I think that would be legal. But what if I bought 3 guns to do this with? 5? 10? This is all hypothetical. Just a thought that crossed my mind.

 

[JettaKnight]

From an ethical standpoint the line is zero. If you're buying a gun with the sole intent of making a profit, that's dealing.

Now from a pragmatic stand point, there's guys with tables at gun shows that do this year round. There's no way the guy that bought my Remington Viper (aka the Jammaster) did it to "improve his collection". How those guys don't get busted is beyond me. Ignoring the BATFE, there's also the business taxes and such that they're dodging.

That's about as far as I'm willing to discuss this topic.




This topic has been covered before here, and it applies a lot to those that hold FFL03's (Curio and Relic).

 

[Booya]

From an ethical standpoint the line is zero. If you're buying a gun with the sole intent of making a profit, that's dealing.

Now from a pragmatic stand point, there's guys with tables at gun shows that do this year round. There's no way the guy that bought my Remington Viper (aka the Jammaster) did it to "improve his collection". How those guys don't get busted is beyond me. Ignoring the BATFE, there's also the business taxes and such that they're dodging.

That's about as far as I'm willing to discuss this topic.




This topic has been covered before here, and it applies a lot to those that hold FFL03's (Curio and Relic).

This, if you're buying it with the intent to sell it for a profit the ATF considers this "dealing". Simple as that. If you bought it because you liked it, but can't stand the way it shoots and you no longer like it, then it's a personal transaction. Flipping is dealing.

 

[THE BIG SITT]

Pretty much answers my questions. This idea crossed my mind when I thought of some guys from high school who flipped cars through college. They didn't have a license or anything like that, and I wondered if the same could have been possible with firearms (morality aside).

 

[Libertarian01]

To TheBigSitt (et alia),

I believe with even just one (1) sale with the intent in mind to flip for money that would be illegal. At that point you are operating as a business to generate income. In reality that would be almost impossible to prove in a court of law.

The issue is: at what point can a real case be made against you? Let's presume you buy and sell five (5) guns a year over a time span four (4) years and generate a profit on each one. You do all of your buying and selling online. In year three (3) a BATFE agent notices your activity and begins to do research. Easy enough. He/she watches you for the remainder of year three (3) and all the way through year four (4). I am guessing the agent would feel they had enough evidence to convict you of acting as a business, even IF it is just a side business.

Now let's use the example that Uncle Bob died and left you a MILLION dollar firearms collection, which you care nothing for and proceed to sell all of it. You are crime free here! In this example you are not acting as a business at all but rather as a private citizen simply liquidating a collection, and this could be easily proven on your side.

I guess my question would be: why take the chance at all? You could make better money going to yard sales and buying cheap golf clubs, cleaning them up, and selling them on Ebay with zero risk than doing something like that with guns. You may well make better money with the golf clubs.

Just my opinion of course, and well worth what ya' paid fer it!

Regards,

Doug

 

[Expat]

The whole thing seems grey and someone asked for clarification from ATF some years ago, as I recall, and they couldn't give a straight answer. I have heard they have busted some of the "private collectors" at the gun shows that buy and sell the same gun at the show.

Playing off the example above though, say I have decided I want a Wilson Combat. I need money to do that. So I start trading, buying and selling different guns with the intent of gaining enough to afford that WC. Am I dealing? I don't think so. I think I am simply involved in improving my collection. But how do you know my intent is to improve my collection and not just produce income?

 

[Libertarian01]

The whole thing seems grey and someone asked for clarification from ATF some years ago, as I recall, and they couldn't give a straight answer. I have heard they have busted some of the "private collectors" at the gun shows that buy and sell the same gun at the show.

Playing off the example above though, say I have decided I want a Wilson Combat. I need money to do that. So I start trading, buying and selling different guns with the intent of gaining enough to afford that WC. Am I dealing? I don't think so. I think I am simply involved in improving my collection. But how do you know my intent is to improve my collection and not just produce income?

To Expat,

I would say in the example you posted it does not matter what you are trying to generate money for - the fact would be that you are generating money by operating a side business buying and selling firearms, for which we are legally required to obtain a license.

It doesn't matter how much money is generated, only that it is generated with the intent of making a profit.

I think the real answer is very ambiguous. In my mind it really boils down the BATFE agents thinking on whether or not they have enough evidence to go to trial. It matters not a whit what the money was generated to do - only that it WAS generated through the operation of a business model.

Again, just an opinion.

Regards,

Doug

 

[rob63]

Anything becomes a very grey area when the difference between what is legal and what is not is what your intent was rather than what your actions were. It all comes down to whether somebody thinks you are worth prosecuting.

 

[THE BIG SITT]

The whole thing seems grey and someone asked for clarification from ATF some years ago, as I recall, and they couldn't give a straight answer. I have heard they have busted some of the "private collectors" at the gun shows that buy and sell the same gun at the show.

Playing off the example above though, say I have decided I want a Wilson Combat. I need money to do that. So I start trading, buying and selling different guns with the intent of gaining enough to afford that WC. Am I dealing? I don't think so. I think I am simply involved in improving my collection. But how do you know my intent is to improve my collection and not just produce income?

That brings up another point. What if you decided you wanted a new Tavor, and decided you would trade your way to it, starting with the crappy Hi-Point you have in your glove box. Is this illegal? What if you bought a Hi Point with the intent pf
trading it up to another gun?

 

[j4jenk]

There is more to engaging in business than hoping to make a few bucks, otherwise playing the power ball would be considered a business expense for tax purposes. I think the best place to look for the tell-tale signs of a business are your expenses. A thrift shop operates as a business and pays taxes, but a garage sale with literally the same inventory would not. The difference is that the thrift store incurred expenses for the storefront and operation, and it purchased it's inventory for the sole reason of resale. So I'd be concerned if you were incurring traceable business expenses and acquiring inventory that appears only for resale. If you think you can convince 12 people who can't get out of jury duty that either of one those isn't true, then you should be in good shape.

 

[Leo]

You just said your intent was to buy-to-sell. You just publically state your intention. Now you are a law breaker if you do that. If you purchase a firearm for your personal use (what you signed on the 4473) and shot it a while, later deciding to sell it because you didn't like it, that would be legal.

 

[THE BIG SITT]

I should reiterate: I am not doing this currently, have not done this in the past, nor do I have any intentions of doing this in the future. Just a thought that I thought may lead to a decent discussion.

 

[jcj54]

engage in the business

Engaged in the Business [Firearms] Law & Legal Definition
(C) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921(a)(11)(A) [18 USCS § 921(a)(11)(A)], a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;

The problem is occasional sale or hobby are not defined in the language of the law...
Gives the Government a LOT of excuses to go after people...

 

[Gunaria]

That brings up another point. What if you decided you wanted a new Tavor, and decided you would trade your way to it, starting with the crappy Hi-Point you have in your glove box. Is this illegal? What if you bought a Hi Point with the intent pf
trading it up to another gun?

Sorry but who trades down to a high-point? Sure let me give you this Sig 938 for your hi-point 380. Hey just busting your balls. Don't get/go into a fit of rage. The AFT is weird at who they go after. And as Forest Gump said, "That's all I have to say about that." I know of one guy who brought and sold over 180 rifles across state lines but did the ATF go after him? HELL NO!

 

[planedriver]

So what about a 20 year collection all of which were bought as an investment with the idea of selling at retirement? Let me have it Perry (as spoken by Della Street)..

 

[Cameramonkey]

The whole thing seems grey and someone asked for clarification from ATF some years ago, as I recall, and they couldn't give a straight answer. I have heard they have busted some of the "private collectors" at the gun shows that buy and sell the same gun at the show.

Playing off the example above though, say I have decided I want a Wilson Combat. I need money to do that. So I start trading, buying and selling different guns with the intent of gaining enough to afford that WC. Am I dealing? I don't think so. I think I am simply involved in improving my collection. But how do you know my intent is to improve my collection and not just produce income?

Well, the IRS says ANY value gained, cash or otherwise, is income. So I wouldnt put it past the gubment to do ANYTHING to screw us in this regard.

 

[bwframe]

Justice Potter Stewart wisely observed, "I can't define porn, but I know it when I see it."