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  1. #11
    Grandmaster Tactically Fat's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by SmileDocHill View Post
    '...T1 or T2'... Are you saying that because it is big or because it is durable like the other Aimpoint offerings?
    Probably because they have a proven track record behind them; whereas the ACRO is still quite new.

  2. #12
    Plinker Latewatch's Avatar

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    I've been carrying a Glock with an RMR on duty for almost 4 years now. I started looking at RDS sighted handguns because of aging eyes causing difficulty picking of the sights in intermediate light situations. So far the Gen 1 RMR has been rock solid. I change the batteries annually and coat the lens with anti-fog stuff about once a month. Have been playing with a Holosun 507c on another Glock for a few months now. I'm liking it so far but don't have enough time with it to feel totally confident with it on a work gun. If my eyes were 20 years younger, I'd still be using iron sights but as it is now the RMR gets me back to being able to make precise shots in intermediate light and also being back to being 100 yard capable with a handgun if required.
    You must prepare your mind for where your body may have to go.

  3. #13
    Hop is offline
    Master Hop's Avatar

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    I have a Holosun (solar backup type) and it turned itself off when in the safe. I couldn't get it to wake up. Tech support had me pressing all kinds of buttons on it & it's been good ever since. It must have reset itself but it doesn't make me trust it. It will NOT be going onto anything unless there are back up irons.

    Revere's Riders Instructor - Master Rifle KD, Master Pistol

    NRA Pistol instructor | NRA Rifle instructor | NRA RSO
    Classes and info here:

  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tactically Fat View Post
    Physiologically we, as humans, are "threat focused" when there is a threat towards us. Our eyeballs, while miraculous organs, still take precious time/thought to go between rear sight, front sight, and the threat. Then it's front sight to threat... Threat to front sight... Front sight to threat...

    Why not have an aiming system that lets you stay focused on the threat?

    By iron sight training, we're taught and taught and taught to focus on the front sight, right? If you're focused on the front sight, you physically cannot be focused on the threat. It's in these split seconds of non-focus that literal life-changing decisions are made/forced to be made.

    Look up Aaron Cowan / Sage Dynamics. Go to his site and download is PDF document about MRDS on pistols. Look at the hit % difference between iron sights and MRDS. Look at the difference in CRITICAL hits between irons and MRDS. R

    Look up his podcast with Practically Tactical.

    For DUTY use, the RMR and/or the Leupold Delta Point (And pro) are the only ones that'll stand up to a drop test.

    Plenty of other MRDS work fantastically for range work / competition. Some of them, like the Shield RMS or whatever it's called, just plain suck when you can scratch the lens just by cleaning it with a Tshirt.

    My opinion: If you're going to carry a gun with an MRDS - don't settle.

    I've resisted an MRDS on a pistol for a long time. My mind has been changed.
    I second everything about Sage Dynamics/Aaron Cowan. OP, if you want to learn about red dots on pistols, that is THE place to go to for information. He has probably 8-10 hours of video on YouTube giving you everything you need to know, as well as continuing optic tests.

    I have used two guns (M&P Pro and now a CZ P-10C) with red dots. The CZ was milled by Jagerwerks, and I highly recommend them. This was my thought process on dot selection, which is joined at the hip with slide milling. If you are milling your slide DO NOT buy a cheap optic. By cheap, I mean anything that is not an RMR. I say that not out of red dot snobbery or some superior "I wont trust my life to ___" argument, but for these reasons:

    1) red dots are expensive, 2) milling is expensive, 3) milling commits you to an optic footprint. Because of that, you cant readily switch to another optic using a different footprint. If you are willing to buy/sell various optics to find something you like, get a pistol with a plate system from the factory and don't mill. That makes it easy to switch optics as you find what you like. Do NOT mill for an optic unless you are 100% certain you wont change from that optic. It is a terrible idea to (for example) spend a bunch buying a Burris FF3 and a mill job, just to find out you don't like that red dot. Try that out on a plate system, which is what I did with the M&P.

    I chose the RMR for these reasons after trying out the Burris FF3 and Vortex offerings. First, durability. The RMR is unquestionably the durability king, both in terms of round count and physical abuse. All other red dots are below the RMR as a direct result of the shape of the RMR housing. In terms of electronics, the Deltapoint, the Holosun HS507c, and the SRO have all held up very well and are a solid second through fourth place tie of sorts. All other brands die much faster with much less abuse (source: Cowan white paper and videos). Second, compatibility. Because the RMR is so popular, I think its footprint will be replicated. The SRO and Holosun already use the RMR footprint, and I and betting more sights will follow. This gives you and advantage in trying cheaper sights on a milled gun (i.e. Holosun, which is the only cheaper sight that has great results).

    Some additional thoughts on red dots and milling/plate systems. The best plate systems are the FN 509 tactical and the CZ P-10 optic ready. That is because those brands use methods to take the recoil stresses off the optic and screws. FN does this with their fancy mini plate and direct slide attachment, CZ does this with a cross pattern. That is a much more durable set up than the Glock and M&P plate systems. On dots, go with a smaller MOA. Once you get used to a bigger dot, you'll realize you lose precision at range and don't gain anything over a smaller dot because you can bump up the brightness of the smaller dot to make it bloom and be easier to pick up. In short, the smaller dot does everything the bigger dot can just as well, and the bigger dot can't do what the smaller dot can. Window size is also very important, and is the RMR's weakness. The bigger the window the easier it is to track the red dot during recoil, which is extremely helpful. At this point though the big window options (Deltapoint and SRO) have some of their own issues. But that merits another post.

    TLDR: read/watch Sage Dynamics, use a plate system if you aren't sure what dot you want, mill if you are 100% sure what dot you want. Red dots are the bomb.

  5. #15

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    I picked up the Canak 9mm with red dot.
    Quick out of the holster.
    It is hard to find the dot.
    Iron sights you have a front and rear to quick locate.
    RDS you have no quick reference.
    You need to break an old habit and create a new one.
    Also brightness plays a big factor.
    At first I had my dot bright to find easy.
    Then I notice I could not see the target as quick.
    I just seen a big red dot.
    Now it is YING/YANG.
    It is different and you just have to practice, practice, and practice.

  6. #16
    ACC is offline

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    As you will see from my pictures below, I am SOLD on the MRDS on pistols. I agree with LAV that this will become the new norm. Already is to some degree with so many companies offering optics cuts/plates/mounts on their OEM pistols.

    I have tried a few different RDS and MRDS sights on pistols over the years and I have landed on two that I like the most (with one caveat).

    For me, on any compact or duty sized pistol, a Trijicon RMR is the way to go. Proven. Rugged. There might be better field of views on other MRDS, but I feel confident in the RMR. (P320 was an RX version that came with the Romeo 1 - which is another good option like Delta Point Pro)

    For single stack pistols (or pistols with slim slides), I like the Shield RMSc. Clear dot. Aluminum housing. Easy battery swap. HOWEVER! The polymer lens on them SUCKS. Scratches when you clean it with anything but a Q-tip. Mine are all scratched up but they continue to work for now. Note that Shield is going to be releasing a glass lens version of the RMS and RMSc sometime in October and you will be able to send your older models back to them for a glass lens swap.

  7. #17
    Expert Doublehelix's Avatar

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    I have been shooting USPSA competition matches this year with a RDS for the first time. Although it is getting easier, had a tough time originally finding the dot from a draw and after a big transition.

    I am shooting a P320 X5, and have the SIG Romeo 1 (6 MOA) installed, and I do like it, but I have very little else to compare it to. Trijicon has a great rep, especially for duty carry with their RMR. Their brand new SRO looks very intriguing with the large glass, but it is definitely NOT ruggedized, and would not trust it for duty carry. Looks amazing for competition types of applications.

    I have been considering taking a serious look at the Deltapoint Pro, but then again, SIG is supposedly releasing the new Romeo 3MAX soon, and that also looks interesting. I am good for now with the Romeo 1 until I see what that new Romeo 3MAX is going to look like.

    I have a Vortex Venom 3MOA on one of my .22LR pistols (S&W Victory) that works well, but I have not used it for anything other than plinking and SCSA practicing.

    "Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake"
    ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

  8. #18
    Master obijohn's Avatar

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    We've been playing with RDS sights on pistols since the days of the doctor sight and the plastic offerings. At the time, we found the concept valid but the technology not strong enough for league play. That has changed considerably in recent years. Though some of the other offerings are getting better, the RMR in whatever flavor is our choice for duty/carry.
    For those of you finding the dot hard to find on the draw or transitions, it's just a matter of adapting your index for the slightly higher sight plane.
    Smile Doc, hit me up off line and I'll be happy to discuss our research with you.
    NRA Endowment Member
    NRA Certified Instructor

    Adaptive Consulting & Training
    Riley Conservation Club

    "The people shall have a right to bear arms, for the defense of themselves and the State."
    Article 1 - Bill of Rights - Section 32


    To must ACT!

  9. #19
    Grandmaster Vigilant's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by SmileDocHill View Post
    '...T1 or T2'... Are you saying that because it is big or because it is durable like the other Aimpoint offerings?
    I said it because itís big, well, big for a handgun.

  10. #20

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    My Vortex has stood up to a ton of use without losing Zero and been fantastic... as far as usage is concerned, to my knowledge it's a good as it gets in budget vs. quality. So far, I'd stick with it and no regrets...

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