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  1. #1
    Plinker Trapper Jim's Avatar

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    Interesting Trend

    I have been getting more and more students in the past few years that are being taught or self learning from YTU that when they barney up they leave the loaded cocked gun in the holster while they remove or insert a topped magazine. I have ran across this occasionally also in the shooting sports as well. As a matter of fact 18 years ago I tried to get IDPA to deal with this in the rulebook and they declined to take a position. This trend IMHO is a happening waiting for an accident. Also trying to manipulate a firearm without presentation is counterproductive to learning good gun handling skills. While some trainers support this, the time it may save on a bulk firing line is not worth the sloppy gun handling that one learns from it. It is even more dangerous with the advent of many current plastic holster designs as I have seen retention failures on occasion. If we compromise on equipment the cohesion of gun and holster is questionable at best let alone reaching around our round bellies as a contortionist to manipulate a cocked loaded gun that we can professionally handle otherwise. Any thoughts on this? Just asking?
    "See you on the Range"

  2. #2
    jlw
    jlw is offline
    Plinker jlw's Avatar

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    I was trained in the police academy almost 20 years ago and in copious amounts of training from both public sector and private sector trainers since that the procedures for administratively loading the firearm are to insert the mag and chamber the round, press check, holster, pop the mag, top it off, insert it until it clicks, and then tug on the magazine to make sure it is seated. It actually frees up hands versus doing a tac load or a reload with retention.

    To each his own though.

    From a training standpoint with a lot of shooters involved, you can have everyone swap a mag all at the same time without removing their firearms from the holster.

  3. #3
    Grandmaster cedartop's Avatar

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    I didn't realize it was a trend. I have always seen people do it and have done it myself. I see no problems with it. It is much safer than having a student being tempted to willy nilly draw their gun to put a topped off magazine in.


    edited to add: I am curious, what kind of problem do you foresee happening here?
    Last edited by cedartop; 5 Days Ago at 08:49.
    Michael Swisher

  4. #4
    Plinker

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    Agree with those above. What is the issue?

  5. #5
    Grandmaster Coach's Avatar

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    What is dangerous about inserting a magazine into a gun that is holstered?
    No one is stronger or more dangerous than the man who can harness his emotions.

    www.BrightFirearmsTraining.com

    abright@ccrtc.com


  6. #6
    Plinker Trapper Jim's Avatar

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    Many shooters can do this without ever having an incident and if that works for them I say fine, however many of our students try to copy what they see and for some of them casual gun handling can be a problem. We have all seen shirt tails tucked inside the holster, mags not fully seated, misaligned retention within the holster to name a few. If one happens to knock his firearm loose from his holster while inserting a mag perhaps it will just hit the ground and be okay however should he try to catch a loaded falling firearm it could be trouble, there is always that. I also feel that a proper presentation is due anytime we need to manipulate our firearm. I do not feel one can get too much practice in good gun handling skills. By presenting to Barney, it is also a chance for the shooter to confirm seating and a general look over of his firearm before re holstering. Again, more practice in action. I kind of relate this to the UASC acrobats that we see when a competitor is finished with a string of fire and does crazy pet tricks with his gun and live ammo under the commands of a RO. I am sure it seems harmless to those that do it successfully but what display are we promoting for less experienced shooters? Or in the matter of hammer down after a course, I believe it to be good practice to take a well aimed dryfire. Again, more practice. Anyway, no big deal here as these are just my observations and I myself will continue to promote the awareness and concentration on manipulating firearms while directly in the shooters workspace where he can see what he is doing. Just me. See you on the range.
    "See you on the Range"

  7. #7
    Marksman rosejm's Avatar

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    I'll agree with you on the repetition of actual skills, and less administrative actions.

    If you're training, practice your reloads as you would under fire.
    Threat gone? Reload & holster, in that order.

  8. #8
    Plinker

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    Gun falling out of holster while swapping mags? How? The whole point is not to remove the gun from holster. Not even a little bit. Iíve never had a person swap mags on a holstered firearm sweep me with the muzzle. When I do this, the gun doesnít come loose. Iím not seeing any problem.

  9. #9
    Grandmaster patience0830's Avatar

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    Most of my holsters will not allow me to manipulate the mag release while holstered.
    Training, SOLDIER!

  10. #10
    Grandmaster Coach's Avatar

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    I agree that gun handling skills are generally lacking and in need of improvement. One method or other does not improve gun handling skills. Paying attention to detail and handling the gun properly and at the right time is what improves gun handling skills. There are many times I prefer the gun to stay in the holster. During matches and classes on a hot range that I run; that is the expectation. I have found that being successful with keeping all gun in the holster has elevated safety drastically. The times that safety gets compromised is the rare exception when someone cannot seem to leave it in the holster as directed. Removing those folks solves the problem.
    No one is stronger or more dangerous than the man who can harness his emotions.

    www.BrightFirearmsTraining.com

    abright@ccrtc.com


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