Man killed by Police was Army Vet and West Point grad

[patton487]

Sorry if this is already been posted. Seems to be a big difference between what police report and what eye witnesses saw.

 

[Indy317]

This is a big case in Las Vegas right now. On another forum I visit, more nationwide in scope, there have been many comments. Basically there are around 50 or "witnesses" or people who have been interviewed.

-10-15 say he pulled the gun on the cops
-30 or so say he didn't pull the gun
-Some say one of the cops might have yelled "Drop the gun!" thus confusing him.
-At least one witness who went on record said he heard a cop/the cops yell "Get on the ground!"
-His girlfriend says that at least one Costco employee who confronted him was actually very helpful and was helping him with seeing how many bottles a cooler could hold.
-Another witness says the guy was talking loudly in the store
-The 911 recording paints a picture to the cops that the guy is causing all sorts of trouble, and claimed he was a Green Beret and allowed to have a gun.
-His girlfriend has stated that they discussed if he should leave the store when he was told to leave by an agent

All this has been reported in the news. To make matters worse, the cameras are said to not have been operational during the incident...which will only make matters worse.

Here is a link to an audio file that contains the dispatch transmissions of the event as it unfolded. Note: I downloaded this file a few days ago, and what I got did sound like the radio communications. I can't vouch for what the file is today (someone might have changed it, I dunno). I didn't get any virus alerts or anything like that. It just downloaded as an MP3 sound file. Also, the Costco run actually starts a few minuets into the recording.

http://www.filedropper.com/costcoois1

 

[kedie]

I read this story and all the comments over on Arfcom. There is a lot of WTF going on in this story.

 

[SavageEagle]

I heard he was lifting his shirt to show the police it was concealed and they shot him. SOmething about the police were a bunch of young guns that were all hyped up because the guy had a gun and they got a little over excited.

 

[E5RANGER375]

Im waiting to hear more details before fully commenting. I wish his Family and Friends peace.

 

[patton487]

I heard he was lifting his shirt to show the police it was concealed and they shot him. SOmething about the police were a bunch of young guns that were all hyped up because the guy had a gun and they got a little over excited.

This is what I gleaned from this confusing story also. I find it strange that the police already had their guns drawn before the guy even came out of the store. Sounds like they were laying in wait for him. Strange.

 

[Bigum1969]

Interesting and very sad.

Anyone have links to some of the other forums where this is being discussed?

 

[downzero]

Could this be the first ever bad shoot by police?

 

[jd4320t]

I heard he was lifting his shirt to show the police it was concealed and they shot him. SOmething about the police were a bunch of young guns that were all hyped up because the guy had a gun and they got a little over excited.

I'm not saying the shooting was justified but if you are stopped by the police and make a motion towards your body you put the LEOs in a situation of "me or him".

 

[downzero]

I'm not saying the shooting was justified but if you are stopped by the police and make a motion towards your body you put the LEOs in a situation of "me or him".

Wrong. Lethal force is not justified unless in self-defense. That is why they're in such a tough position. They may have split seconds to react, but that tough position doesn't negate the fact that guns are pointed at live human beings, who have a right to life, with potentially lethal consequences.

We may never know the facts of this instance. I find it hard, very hard in fact, to believe that a lawful CCW permit holder committed suicide by cop in front of a Costco.

I hope the police didn't make a terrible mistake in this instance. Listening to the radio calls, they must have been frantic. But I think we'd really be in the wrong to not seriously scrutinize and question this shooting.

I carry a gun every day and I cannot fathom how terrified I'd be if I were in this position. He's dead now, so we'll never hear his story.

I suspect, however, that even if this shooting was unjustified, the police officers involved will do no jail time, and will probably return to the force.

 

[jd4320t]

Wrong. Lethal force is not justified unless in self-defense. That is why they're in such a tough position. They may have split seconds to react, but that tough position doesn't negate the fact that guns are pointed at live human beings, who have a right to life, with potentially lethal consequences.

I'm lost. Where am I wrong? All I'm saying is that if you are stopped by a LEO and they tell you to stop and get down then you do it. It's that simple. You don't reach for anything on your body, in your jacket, under your shirt, in your pocket or wherever. Again, like in my original post, I'm not saying the shooting was justified. I'm saying that this guy put everyone in a situation that ended tragically when all he had to do was listen to the police.

 

[j706]

I have known some very sharp West Point grads including this one whom was a relative. The Captain Andrew R. Houghton Foundation - Home He was a very sharp guy.

I have also know some that were blooming idiots with no common sense. The OP's link basically seems to imply that because this guy was a West Point grad and some people say they saw different things the the police shot this guy for no good reason.

West Point or not if you get challenged by the police whom have weapons pointed at you,and you pull out a gun for any reason, you are probably going to get smoked. It ain't some weird conspiracy and it sure ain't rocket science.

 

[SavageEagle]

I'm not saying the shooting was justified but if you are stopped by the police and make a motion towards your body you put the LEOs in a situation of "me or him".

Exactly. They deal with enough crap on the job and have seen enough officers get shot on routine stops to know that a guy can get a gun out quick enough.

HOWEVER... he supposedly never touched the gun, just his shirt. If they had their guns ALREADY drawn on him, there's NO WAY he could have gotten the gun, fired, and killed one of them by the time they unloaded their mags. It was clearly uncalled for what they did if the story checks out.

However, we may never know the truth with as many people witnessed it that have conflicting accounts.

 

[downzero]

I'm lost. Where am I wrong? All I'm saying is that if you are stopped by a LEO and they tell you to stop and get down then you do it. It's that simple. You don't reach for anything on your body, in your jacket, under your shirt, in your pocket or wherever. Again, like in my original post, I'm not saying the shooting was justified. I'm saying that this guy put everyone in a situation that ended tragically when all he had to do was listen to the police.

I'm not saying the shooting was unjustified, either. It's also not clear what his instructions are, or who was giving them, or what the hell happened when three officers confronted him at the same time. Listening to the police radio, their confrontation doesn't appear to be planned, either, so they were likely flying by the seat of their pants. They arrived on the scene and it wasn't long before this man was shot.

West Point or not if you get challenged by the police whom have weapons pointed at you,and you pull out a gun for any reason, you are probably going to get smoked. It ain't some weird conspiracy and it sure ain't rocket science.

I don't think anyone here would disagree with you if that was the case. The problem, as I see it, is that there seem to be many people saying that's not what happened, a family lawyer saying that would never happen, and other facts surrounding this individual that fail to establish the facts that would likely lead to an individual being lawfully, "smoked."

And let's face it, if you were the dead guy, you'd want your name cleared, even if it didn't give you your life back.

I fear that a terrible mistake has been made.

 

[j706]

Exactly. They deal with enough crap on the job and have seen enough officers get shot on routine stops to know that a guy can get a gun out quick enough.

HOWEVER... he supposedly never touched the gun, just his shirt. If they had their guns ALREADY drawn on him, there's NO WAY he could have gotten the gun, fired, and killed one of them by the time they unloaded their mags. It was clearly uncalled for what they did if the story checks out.

However, we may never know the truth with as many people witnessed it that have conflicting accounts.

Unfortunately witnesses will always have conflicting accounts. That is just the nature of things.

 

[E5RANGER375]

i dont think the fact that he was a West Point Grad should play any part in this. It doesnt mean he was a saint. nor does it mean if you dont go to West Point are you any less of a good person. Its sad what media will do to get a story. Whats next? media hired hitmen? i wouldnt doubt its already been done somewhere.

sounds like this may have been a accident. If shots were fired before he had his hand ON the gun, then its not good.

but sounds like at least one officer told him to drop the gun, so he might have thought they wanted him to pull it out and drop it. Sounds like poor coordination by the police on scene. from accounts it seems like they were waiting on him, in an almost ambush, so obviously they had the time to coordinate and appoint a police liason to call out ONE set of commands.

sad either way. it doesnt sound like he was trying to harm anyone. If he was there would have been dead cops with his training vs. theirs.
seems like people were trigger happy and disorganized and it led to an innocent mans death. Im not a judge, but thats my opinion after reading everything i can find on this. take it for what its worth. an opinion. someone needs to be held accountible if its determined it was a bad shoot. a guy is dead, and anytime police fire a weapon there should be the question asked "why?" and "was it justified with evidence that backs it up?" we at least owe that much to the mans family, even if he was in the wrong.

 

[Indy317]

The Las Vegas Metro PD has been involved in many shootings this year. A handful resulted in death. The Sheriff, who oversees the police, went on a radio show. Here is a link if you are interested:

Sheriff Responds to Rash of Police Shootings KXNT-AM

Just to give folks a heads up, the news stories that reported this radio interview/call in posted the same dumb questions that some folks always bring up with police shootings: "Why can't you just shoot in the legs?"

 

[Indy317]

Update: Coroner's Inquest has started in this case.

Today the Coroner's inquest has started. There was a live blog about it here:

Day 1 blog: Witness says Erik Scott appeared 'dazed,' aimed gun at officer - Wednesday, Sept. 22, 2010 | 10:41 a.m. - Las Vegas Sun

Some of the issues that we didn't know about:
-Medical examiner testified that Erik Scott had high levels of both morphine and Xanax in his system.
-Two gun shot wounds to the front, five from the back.
-He tried to get a doctor in the past to give him a scrip for Hydrocodone, when this Dr. first got up to testify, the lawyer for the guy's family objected and they cleared the room for a while. Eventually this Dr. testified about the request for Hydrocodone.
-Another Dr. testified he believed Erik was addicted to Hydrocodone.
-Another Dr. testified he didn't think Erik was an addict (from what I got). Erik said his pain that was 10 out of 10 was now 2 out of 10.
-A part-time Costco employee testified she saw and heard an officer tell Erik to get on the ground "at least five times." The witness testified she saw Erik reach behind his back, pull out a gun, and point it at the officer.

 

[public servant]

Thanks for the update.

 

[Hawkeye]

Sounds like the Wild West to me. And its in Vegas, BABY! Never had any desire to go there, still don't.