Man killed by Police was Army Vet and West Point grad

[cowboy23]

i have know idea but this sounds like a crazy mess. i hope that his family is coping with this as well as they can. just terrible

 

[Indy317]

The day 1 blog actually happened two days ago. Here is a link for the Day 2 blog:

Day 2 blog: Officer in Costco shooting: 'He was a deadly threat with that weapon' - Thursday, Sept. 23, 2010 | 9:43 a.m. - Las Vegas Sun

Notes:
-The entire situation is odd. The guy was obviously leaning towards hostile, as he was destroying property (ripping things out of their original packaging), tossing things around, refused to leave, yelled about his rights when told he couldn't have a gun in the store.
-There is some 911 call where the person is telling the cops that someone fired six shots and they are evacuating the store.
-Witness loss prevention guy (one who called 911 and initially confronted Erik) claims he pulled gun in a manner one would shoot it and it was pointed at, or at least towards, the officer.
-Hard drive was corrupted, reported two days before shooting. Hard drive appears to have been analyzed by LVPD on scene, US Secret Service, then finally sent to a data recovery firm which couldn't get anything from it.
-Officer who first shot Erik said that Erik told him he had a gun. This is where the opps factor might come in. The officer is said to have ordered Erik to show his hands, then put his weapon down twice. The officer is then reported to testify that Erik's response was to pull out his gun. Well, if the officer said put the weapon down, and it is in a holster, I can see someone, especially someone who might be in some way intoxicated, think "OK. I need to removed my pistol and put it on the ground." Of course he pulls the gun and the officer fired.
-The officers are:
A 38 year old with over five years on (this officer fired the first two shots into the front).
A 28 year old with just at two years on.
A 23 year old with a year an a half on.

The two younger officers fired the remaining five shots, these went into the backside of Erik.

 

[SSGSAD]

Keep posting, keep us updated, I would like to follow this ....

 

[Cemetery-man]

This is getting strange. Someone is doing a whole bunch of lying. Family or police? Time will tell I guess.

 

[jedi]

Interesting comment from the lost prevention COSTCO employee during his testimony he said:

"Then I just heard a couple of more shots," Lierley said. He said he saw Scott move on the ground and heard more shots. "It was one after another. ... It was real quick, less than a second."

Almost makes it sound like the first LEO (shot once perhaps twice based on medical report) and THEN the two younger LEOs fired from behind **AFTER** the guy was on the ground. Not sure which shot (s) killed the guy as the medical report only said multiple gun shot wounds.

But here is the statement from the first LEO (the one with the most experience that shot thr guy in the front).

He said he shot twice, then stopped. He said Scott didn't fall immediately. Then he heard the other two officers also shoot.

From what I have read so far seems like LEO 1's actions were justified.

 

[j706]

I have known some very sharp West Point grads including this one whom was a relative. The Captain Andrew R. Houghton Foundation - Home He was a very sharp guy.

I have also know some that were blooming idiots with no common sense. The OP's link basically seems to imply that because this guy was a West Point grad and some people say they saw different things the the police shot this guy for no good reason.

West Point or not if you get challenged by the police whom have weapons pointed at you,and you pull out a gun for any reason, you are probably going to get smoked. It ain't some weird conspiracy and it sure ain't rocket science.

Well and now we have the real details. Just about like I expected. Sounds like this guy had zero business carrying a weapon in his condition. He tripped and fell walking into the store even though there was nothing to trip on. He could not comprehend simple instructions filling out a membership card. All the callers state he was on some sort of drugs...and he WAS! The guy screwed up irregardless of his intentions. And he was shot and killed as a result. A tragic incident but a good shoot IMO.

 

[Vasili]

just goes to show - never trust eyewitnesses.

of more than fifty people, there's not a single corroborated story.

not one.

 

[rambone]

The OP's link basically seems to imply that because this guy was a West Point grad and some people say they saw different things the the police shot this guy for no good reason.

West Point or not if you get challenged by the police whom have weapons pointed at you,and you pull out a gun for any reason, you are probably going to get smoked. It ain't some weird conspiracy and it sure ain't rocket science.

If the guy was an off duty cop you would be outraged. "Man killed by police was off-duty officer." And the fact that other people saw different things should more than justify a full investigation.

Well and now we have the real details. Just about like I expected. Sounds like this guy had zero business carrying a weapon in his condition. He tripped and fell walking into the store even though there was nothing to trip on. He could not comprehend simple instructions filling out a membership card. All the callers state he was on some sort of drugs...and he WAS! The guy screwed up irregardless of his intentions. And he was shot and killed as a result. A tragic incident but a good shoot IMO.

Where did you get the "real details" ? I saw a bunch of testimony and conflicting stories. Your postings seem to imply that it was impossible that the police made a mistake. You also seem to be implying that intoxication is evidence/justification/grounds for public execution. If that is how you feel then you have zero business carrying a badge.

Some of the issues that we didn't know about:
-Medical examiner testified that Erik Scott had high levels of both morphine and Xanax in his system.
-He tried to get a doctor in the past to give him a scrip for Hydrocodone, when this Dr. first got up to testify, the lawyer for the guy's family objected and they cleared the room for a while. Eventually this Dr. testified about the request for Hydrocodone.
-Another Dr. testified he believed Erik was addicted to Hydrocodone.
-Another Dr. testified he didn't think Erik was an addict (from what I got). Erik said his pain that was 10 out of 10 was now 2 out of 10.

Drunk, high, doesn't really matter. Half of America is addicted to something. That doesn't warrant a firing squad. One question is relevant. "Were the cops in mortal danger?"

 

[j706]

Public Execution?? A little simple common sense rule- if you are ordered to the ground by LE at gun point, DO NOT PULL OUT YOUR GUN FOR ANY REASON AT ALL!!!! It ain't rocket science people.

No doubt this Dumb a-- probably didn't intend to do any violence. But in his narcotics induced stupidity he screwed up. He paid for it with his life. Sad? Absolutely. Given the same circumstances I would have shot him also. So would have about 99% of the people on this forum.

 

[rambone]

"ALLEGEDLY"

This is *NOT* the only person carrying a pistol in Vegas that has been shot in the back lately.

 

[Prometheus]

-Officer who first shot Erik said that Erik told him he had a gun. This is where the opps factor might come in. The officer is said to have ordered Erik to show his hands, then put his weapon down twice. The officer is then reported to testify that Erik's response was to pull out his gun. Well, if the officer said put the weapon down, and it is in a holster, I can see someone, especially someone who might be in some way intoxicated, think "OK. I need to removed my pistol and put it on the ground." Of course he pulls the gun and the officer fired.
-The officers are:
A 38 year old with over five years on (this officer fired the first two shots into the front).
A 28 year old with just at two years on.
A 23 year old with a year an a half on.

The two younger officers fired the remaining five shots, these went into the backside of Erik.

About the only thing we can decifer from this is that 3 officers were yelling three different commands.

50 different witnesses saying 50 different things, yep.

Sucks that HD is corrupted.

 

[SynnerG]

Since I hadn't seen this article posted in this thread, but found it else where, thought people might want to see it: ERIK SCOTT INQUEST: Shooting ruled justifiable - News - ReviewJournal.com

With all the back and forth on the testimony and eyewitnesses, I wish there was some video on this one. :-/

 

[03mustgt]

"ALLEGEDLY"

This is *NOT* the only person carrying a pistol in Vegas that has been shot in the back lately.

Read this article:
Force Science News #144: ?Excessive? shots and falling assailants: A fresh look at OIS subtleties at Force Science News

It's a good read and can explain why so many shots are fired.

 

[88E30M50]

i dont think the fact that he was a West Point Grad should play any part in this. It doesnt mean he was a saint. nor does it mean if you dont go to West Point are you any less of a good person. Its sad what media will do to get a story. Whats next? media hired hitmen? i wouldnt doubt its already been done somewhere.

sounds like this may have been a accident. If shots were fired before he had his hand ON the gun, then its not good.

but sounds like at least one officer told him to drop the gun, so he might have thought they wanted him to pull it out and drop it. Sounds like poor coordination by the police on scene. from accounts it seems like they were waiting on him, in an almost ambush, so obviously they had the time to coordinate and appoint a police liason to call out ONE set of commands.

sad either way. it doesnt sound like he was trying to harm anyone. If he was there would have been dead cops with his training vs. theirs.
seems like people were trigger happy and disorganized and it led to an innocent mans death. Im not a judge, but thats my opinion after reading everything i can find on this. take it for what its worth. an opinion. someone needs to be held accountible if its determined it was a bad shoot. a guy is dead, and anytime police fire a weapon there should be the question asked "why?" and "was it justified with evidence that backs it up?" we at least owe that much to the mans family, even if he was in the wrong.

I'm thinking the same thing. If you walked out of a store and were confronted by 3 cops with guns drawn and one was screaming to drop your gun, even though it was still holstered, isn't there a chance you would think they were asking you to unholster and drop the gun? With the others screaming to get down or drop it, it would be hard to know exactly what they wanted you to do.

So, if you are doing no wrong and a police officer is called by a panicked democrat that wet themselves at the sight of a gun, and the police, going only on the panicked report's info, confronts you, what do you do? If he asks you to drop a gun that is holstered, do you refuse to comply and risk getting shot or do you start to drop the gun and risk getting shot? I don't know enough about this situation to make a judgment, but there's an awfully good chance that this guy was no different than many of us and lost his life for no reason. Or, he could have decided to go on a shooting spree, but first wanted to check for a deal on a new cooler at Costco while shopping with his girlfriend. Occum's Razor works against the shooting spree theory.

 

[E5RANGER375]

Today the Coroner's inquest has started. There was a live blog about it here:

Day 1 blog: Witness says Erik Scott appeared 'dazed,' aimed gun at officer - Wednesday, Sept. 22, 2010 | 10:41 a.m. - Las Vegas Sun

Some of the issues that we didn't know about:
-Medical examiner testified that Erik Scott had high levels of both morphine and Xanax in his system.
-Two gun shot wounds to the front, five from the back.
-He tried to get a doctor in the past to give him a scrip for Hydrocodone, when this Dr. first got up to testify, the lawyer for the guy's family objected and they cleared the room for a while. Eventually this Dr. testified about the request for Hydrocodone.
-Another Dr. testified he believed Erik was addicted to Hydrocodone.
-Another Dr. testified he didn't think Erik was an addict (from what I got). Erik said his pain that was 10 out of 10 was now 2 out of 10.
-A part-time Costco employee testified she saw and heard an officer tell Erik to get on the ground "at least five times." The witness testified she saw Erik reach behind his back, pull out a gun, and point it at the officer.

heres a fact. you cant take hydrocodone for an extended period of time and not form some sort of dependency (others call it addiction). The problem is (and I have first hand experience) that some VA doctors (dont know if thats who he delt with), will just throw the strongest pain meds at you they can, without even treating the REAL problem or injury. its easy for them to write a script for this stuff and less time and hassle for them to deal with their patients and protect them like they have a duty and an oath to do. so many times the strong meds they give you lead to other problems down the road that are caused by the meds. pain meds are no joke. they will screw you up in every way imaginable. I actualy had to DEMAND my doctors take me off of certain meds because a doctor friend of mine told me that i could actualy die of an overdoes or withdrawl symptoms if i took the HIGH amount of STRONG pain meds my VA doc was giving me. my friend told me i was on drugs and amounts only a person with terminal cancer should be taking.
then if you get assigned another doctor they might not want you on any pain meds and might actualy stop your prescriptions to the pills completely without weaning you off like they should so you dont die. the health care system especialy with the VA is effed up bad!

If this guys experiences with doctors were anything like mine, then no wonder he wasnt thinking clearly and might have been "addicted" to the pills. too many addictions in this country are caused by crappy doctors and the patients are the ones who pay the price, not the doctor that prescribed them carelessly and neglegently. sad anyway you look at it.

just for the record, i never had a substance abuse problem thank goodness, but i very well could have if I hadnt had a good doctor friend who helped me tell my VA doctor to go get bent and re-study his job a little better.

 

[jd4320t]

Am I missing something here? Everything I've read leads me to believe that LEO 1 waiting half a second longer would've resulted in his death. I don't care what's being yelled, how drunk, dumb, or high this guy was, he wouldn't have got killed if he hadn't moved his hands towards his body.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

Am I missing something here? Everything I've read leads me to believe that LEO 1 waiting half a second longer would've resulted in his death. I don't care what's being yelled, how drunk, dumb, or high this guy was, he wouldn't have got killed if he hadn't moved his hands towards his body.

Why would you believe that a man who is being told to drop the weapon, and removes it still in the holster would of resulted in the cops death?

IMO I believe the only person who's life was in danger was the one that got killed.

 

[rambone]

I'm thinking the same thing. If you walked out of a store and were confronted by 3 cops with guns drawn and one was screaming to drop your gun, even though it was still holstered, isn't there a chance you would think they were asking you to unholster and drop the gun? With the others screaming to get down or drop it, it would be hard to know exactly what they wanted you to do.

So, if you are doing no wrong and a police officer is called by a panicked democrat that wet themselves at the sight of a gun, and the police, going only on the panicked report's info, confronts you, what do you do? If he asks you to drop a gun that is holstered, do you refuse to comply and risk getting shot or do you start to drop the gun and risk getting shot? I don't know enough about this situation to make a judgment, but there's an awfully good chance that this guy was no different than many of us and lost his life for no reason. Or, he could have decided to go on a shooting spree, but first wanted to check for a deal on a new cooler at Costco while shopping with his girlfriend. Occum's Razor works against the shooting spree theory.

I agree with this assessment. Witnesses said the cops commanded him to drop the gun, so what is he supposed to do, but reach for it.

 

[j706]

I agree with this assessment. Witnesses said the cops commanded him to drop the gun, so what is he supposed to do, but reach for it.

 

[Archaic_Entity]

I agree with this assessment. Witnesses said the cops commanded him to drop the gun, so what is he supposed to do, but reach for it.

Maybe it's just me, but I would, in no way, ever reach for my gun if ordered at gun point to do anything. I would obey all pertinent instructions otherwise, such as "get down on the ground" and so forth. How do I know?

Because it's happened to me. I've had two AR-15s trained on me by a couple DNR Officers. I had my pistol holstered on my person. And with the commands they gave, which included dropping any weapons we had, put our hands up and walk forward slowly, we simply did the last two. Why? Because no-effing-way am I reaching for a weapon if none is in hand. After being cuffed and placed on the ground I notified the Officers of the pistol on my person which they removed without issue.

The DNR responded to a call where some folks apparently hear bullets "whizzing over their heads." I find that hard to believe because we were firing into a ditch at varying distances of 10 to 20 feet ahead, but all bullets ended up in the side of a ditch. Oh well, though.