How much land?

[ThrottleJockey]

My thought is that since most of my extended family rely upon the white collar jobs, an economic collapse would likely mean that they lose their means of support. Even something like gov seizure of IRA and 401k or pension assets would throw some into a death spiral. In such a situation even menial labor jobs will be fought over tooth and nail. It would likely be easier, more convenient or just the only option for us to all gather at grandma and grandpas and rely upon one another. In any circumstance it is comforting to know that we do at least have the resources to make it a workable option should the need arise in the future. Heck even in a martial law type scenario I would vote for the option of leaving it all behind. I suspect that IF it ever happened that it would not be an all at once muster, but rather a gradual trickling in of family.

 

[Sailor]

If its that bad that you have to bug out, and you have working farm equipment, you will be a huge target. How large a farm can you work and protect 24/7 with 25 people? 3000 gallons of fuel that money could buy a lot of stored wheat and beans. If it gets that bad I would think smaller and low pro or you are going to get overrun.

 

[ThrottleJockey]

If its that bad that you have to bug out, and you have working farm equipment, you will be a huge target. How large a farm can you work and protect 24/7 with 25 people? 3000 gallons of fuel that money could buy a lot of stored wheat and beans. If it gets that bad I would think smaller and low pro or you are going to get overrun.

We're not talking about a bugout or an all at once disaster. We aren't talking about buying anything at all. We're talking (hypothetically of course) about using our families already existing resources to sustain our family in the event times get hard. Why wouldn't 25 people be able to work out a schedule for standing watch? It is unlikely that all would live in the same dwelling even, the clubhouse/restaurant/bar would become a central meeting place/galley/community center if you will, while the existing cabins surrounding the outskirts of the property would be occupied by the individual "sub-sets" of the family with duty shifts on patrol 24/7 if need be...How large a farm could 25 people secure? If the 100 acre golf course is enough land to sustain, I'm guessing that's about how large we could secure.

 

[Sailor]

Ok, go with that.

 

[Eddie]

We're not talking about a bugout or an all at once disaster. We aren't talking about buying anything at all. We're talking (hypothetically of course) about using our families already existing resources to sustain our family in the event times get hard. Why wouldn't 25 people be able to work out a schedule for standing watch? It is unlikely that all would live in the same dwelling even, the clubhouse/restaurant/bar would become a central meeting place/galley/community center if you will, while the existing cabins surrounding the outskirts of the property would be occupied by the individual "sub-sets" of the family with duty shifts on patrol 24/7 if need be...How large a farm could 25 people secure? If the 100 acre golf course is enough land to sustain, I'm guessing that's about how large we could secure.

Take into account though if not everyone in your group is an adult that will reduce the number of people who can stand a watch. Then subtract anyone who has already spent all day working the farm. A hundred acre square I think would be about 2000 feet on a side, over a mile of perimeter to patrol.

 

[longbow]

Doesn't matter, if they don't have a stream or surface water near the place.

That is a big group to have in "one" place. I have to find my waste calculator to figure out how much waste they would produce......

One year supply of TP would fill a garage.

75 gallons of clean water per day
75 meals per day
laundry
dishes
soap

You'd always have someone sick if you had 25 together.

Do you know how fast a group like that would screw up a septic tank?

Can you have 5 homes with five spread out on the land in case of a fire or accident. Plus it would be great to spread the supplies out.

 

[longbow]

an acre per cow for grazing-min
an acre per livestock for hay production, min
an acre per family for a garden-min
an acre per home and barn
5 to 10 acres of woods per home for firewood
several one acre ponds at least 10 feet deep to keep the fish alive over winter
fields for growing grain-figure 50 bushels per acre at best.
don't forget about field rotation....1/3 to 1/4 is taken out of production each year.
Figure 5% of the land is wasted because you need paths to move around and other transportation uses.

 

[gage]

I don't know, but if this turns into a Group-Buy
I'm interested!

 

[ThrottleJockey]

Longbow, in addition to the main house (grandma and grandpas) there are 7 single family homes (cabins) around the edge of the property each with it's own well and septic, and the clubhouse which was a restaurant/bar, and 2 LARGE pole buildings. There are 2 large ponds fully stocked with bass, catfish, bluegill and crappie. One of the group (Mom) is a Doctor of medicine and there is a state forest with thousands of acres of wood to cut bordering one side of the property. This was a country club/golf course until about 5 years ago. All of this is "hypothetical" of course wink, wink. Oh, I almost forgot to mention, since it was a golf course there are irrigation lines already in place. I'm just curious if 100 acres with these amenities is enough to sustain roughly 25 people.

 

[ThrottleJockey]

I don't know, but if this turns into a Group-Buy
I'm interested!

Well my Grandfather has always said that EVERYTHING is for sale if the price is right

 

[bwframe]

I would think the governing structure of the group would be as if not more important than the assets.

 

[longbow]

I would think the governing structure of the group would be as if not more important than the assets.

A few tractors, and other equipment would help! Plus being stocked up to get through a winter would be a nice starting point....

 

[ThrottleJockey]

A few tractors, and other equipment would help! Plus being stocked up to get through a winter would be a nice starting point....

Yup.

Of course this is all hypothetical and I'm shooting from the hip here but let's assume basic machinery like a large tractor w/disc, bushhog, mowers and a few smaller machines of various types that can be modified to perform nearly any basic task. Let's also throw in a skid loader, a spreader, wagon, a few 4X4s and say 3,000 gallons of fuel to start out with. Let's also assume that as time passes things will move "backwards" toward 1800,s tech.

 

[longbow]

Yup.

So there will be 80 million people in the USA if we go back to 1880's technology.............

80 million
---
308 million

=

75% of the population will die off.......

 

[Sailor]

The way I see it is post shtf you either need to be a warlord or well below the radar. Anything in between is at severe risk. I think a desperate hoard will over run the place.

 

[ThrottleJockey]

The way I see it is post shtf you either need to be a warlord or well below the radar. Anything in between is at severe risk. I think a desperate hoard will over run the place.

We're not talking TEOTWAWKI, just economic depression. I've been living SHTF for a little over a year now and no desperate hoards yet. Is that what happened in '29?

 

[shibumiseeker]

Longbow, in addition to the main house (grandma and grandpas) there are 7 single family homes (cabins) around the edge of the property each with it's own well and septic, and the clubhouse which was a restaurant/bar, and 2 LARGE pole buildings. There are 2 large ponds fully stocked with bass, catfish, bluegill and crappie. One of the group (Mom) is a Doctor of medicine and there is a state forest with thousands of acres of wood to cut bordering one side of the property. This was a country club/golf course until about 5 years ago. All of this is "hypothetical" of course wink, wink. Oh, I almost forgot to mention, since it was a golf course there are irrigation lines already in place. I'm just curious if 100 acres with these amenities is enough to sustain roughly 25 people.

I can tell you right now that your golf course does not have soil that is well set up for agriculture and you're going to spend many years getting the soil ready to grow decent crops. The O and A horizons of the soil will be very thin and won't have the necessary substructure for conduction and storage of water and nutrients.

100 acres of former golf course in Indiana to support 25 people? Not right now, probably not in the first 5 years. Eventually? Maybe, but it's going to require a lot of work to get it to that point. The woods of which you speak is going to be the only thing that would get you there and save your butt if you had to move into your 100 acres right now if TEOTWAWKI happens.

 

[Leadeye]

I think it's a better idea to figure out how you can be happy and safe on 50% of your current standard of living while maintaining a low profile. This is the more likely scenarion for the future.

 

[Amishman44]

My dad has a 118 acres next door to an amish family, who only has 40 acres and wishes to expand their operations. If SHTF, we will be 'camping' there, working out making that all happen. The amish guy has a welding shop and everything as we'll need to convert dad's well to a handpump, etc. The neighbor has milk cows, chickens, etc...dad has the place to expand all that!

 

[Amishman44]

So there will be 80 million people in the USA if we go back to 1880's technology.............

80 million / 308 million = 75% of the population will die off.......

The biggest problem will be in the cities where most people, who rely on others to provide their basic needs (food, water, etc.) will no longer have those services available to them. The time tables for these types of issues to go full circle is around 90 days.