How much land?

[ThrottleJockey]

Just a curiosity, but how much land would a group of say 25 people need to sustain food growth, livestock and feed/bedding for said livestock? Would 40 acres be enough? 60? 100? What are your thoughts? According to "The Have-More plan" a country acre (2.5 acres) is enough to sustain a small family of say 3-5 people with proper layout and planning. Here is a link to the free download, it was originally published in I believe 1940ish but should still hold true today. The "Have-More" Plan - Free eBooks Download
If this link does not work I have it saved as a PDF, just PM me for a copy. Any additional thoughts or info is appreciated as is some intelligent discussion.

 

[shibumiseeker]

It entirely depends on where that land is, what it's productivity is, and how well you can practice sustainable agriculture.

You can make any land produce a lot if you pump enough fertilizer, energy, and water into it. But that's not sustainable in a TEOTWAWKI situation.

Also, high productivity out of the land is a LOT of work. More than most people today have any real concept of.

The answer, assuming we're talking Indiana, is anywhere from an acre a person to tens of acres per person, all depending on the above factors.

 

[6birds]

When you're talking livestock, that's a game-changer. You're going to need graze land for year round, and possibly some haying fields to set aside for deep snow years. You'll also need some acreage with timber for heating.

If you look at a small Amish family set-up (they're pretty efficient and have tools and equipment to borrow), we're set up for 140 arcres, and that'll be enough for a family of 20 with lots of hard work, and we're gonna have to do some swappin and tadin to be comfortable.

Many have done it with less, but we don't have a full working herd of horses or the horse drawn equipment that make farming easier.

I can't get the link to work, but 2.5 arces sounds like a nice garden, not much meat or farm acreage to support livestock. If you have a few goats and buy or trade for grain and hay, you might be ok, but no longer self sufficient.

My parents and a younger brother are currenly living this lifestyle, and i have used their property as reference. They are currently off-grid and doing well.

 

[irishfan]

What type of livestock you plan on using would be a factor as well. Are you talking cows, sheep, goats, chickens, turkeys(PITA)?

 

[Bill B]

If you really read it the "Have more plan" is not self-sufficient. The trouble with large livestock is the large amount of feed required to sustain them. Anything beyond a couple of cows becomes very difficult to support without outside sources of supply.
When I was a child we had two horses and three cows. In addition to the silage from 10 acres of sweet corn we usually used about 2-300 ninety pound bales of hay and up to a ton of grain feed every winter. Long/hard winters we obviously used more. Each animal had to have at least five gallons of water available every day as well.
During the summer they were all pastured on about five acres and they still got hay and grain supplements too (about a bale a day and about 5 pounds of grain).
Pigs are easier as they got all the scraps but they still need a lot of corn/grain every day, but I couldn't put a number on it.
I, personally, would look to goats and chickens for animals.
As far as produce goes, like others have said, "it depends" on a lot of things.

 

[Eddie]

A couple of other thoughts to throw into the mix:

-Are you talking 25 families, 25 adult males or a mix of 25 people with some being babies, others elderly and such? That will make a lot of difference as to how much use they can make of the land.

-Is each individual sufficient unto themself or is it a community? In other words is each person taking enough acreage to produce everything they need for themself all year long or is one person raising chickens, another goats, another has an orchard, etc.

 

[Sailor]

The skills of the group will be the deciding factor.

My thoughts are if you are not doing it well now, its not going to happen if SHTF.

 

[6birds]

My thoughts are if you are not doing it well now, its not going to happen if SHTF.

This!

 

[grimor]

400 acres, 100 livestock, 100 farming, 200 wooded hunting, misc resources

 

[ThrottleJockey]

Livestock: I'm thinking goats, pigs and chickens.
People: A mix of men, women, teenagers and babies. Let's throw in a couple older folks too.
Skill set: A good mix of everything from an old farm raised couple to a couple engineers to an accountant, a doctor and plenty of laborers, etc...basically a pretty well rounded group.
I'll leave woodland out of the equation, let's just pretend the land borders a LARGE tract of public land for firewood and hunting. Water won't be a problem since we're pretending there is a large pond or two well stocked with fish over the last 70-80 years. We'll also pretend that the land needed will be for growing fruits and vegetables to sustain 25 PEOPLE, not families, and the grain, straw and hay to sustain a population of livestock for meat, eggs and dairy. We'll go ahead and assume all the required buildings and equipment are in place already along with seed and everything needed to survive the first year independently while the animals reproduce and the food grows. Is 100 acres enough? Would that leave any wiggle room for trading some goods for other necessities? Would neighboring land require "annexation" so to speak?

 

[Eddie]

Livestock: I'm thinking goats, pigs and chickens.
People: A mix of men, women, teenagers and babies. Let's throw in a couple older folks too.
Skill set: A good mix of everything from an old farm raised couple to a couple engineers to an accountant, a doctor and plenty of laborers, etc...basically a pretty well rounded group.
I'll leave woodland out of the equation, let's just pretend the land borders a LARGE tract of public land for firewood and hunting. Water won't be a problem since we're pretending there is a large pond or two well stocked with fish over the last 70-80 years. We'll also pretend that the land needed will be for growing fruits and vegetables to sustain 25 PEOPLE, not families, and the grain, straw and hay to sustain a population of livestock for meat, eggs and dairy. We'll go ahead and assume all the required buildings and equipment are in place already along with seed and everything needed to survive the first year independently while the animals reproduce and the food grows. Is 100 acres enough? Would that leave any wiggle room for trading some goods for other necessities? Would neighboring land require "annexation" so to speak?

Do you have machines to help with the farming or are we talking 1800's agriculture?

 

[ThrottleJockey]

Of course this is all hypothetical and I'm shooting from the hip here but let's assume basic machinery like a large tractor w/disc, bushhog, mowers and a few smaller machines of various types that can be modified to perform nearly any basic task. Let's also throw in a skid loader, a spreader, wagon, a few 4X4s and say 3,000 gallons of fuel to start out with. Let's also assume that as time passes things will move "backwards" toward 1800,s tech.

 

[Eddie]

Of course this is all hypothetical and I'm shooting from the hip here but let's assume basic machinery like a large tractor w/disc, bushhog, mowers and a few smaller machines of various types that can be modified to perform nearly any basic task. Let's also throw in a skid loader, a spreader, wagon, a few 4X4s and say 3,000 gallons of fuel to start out with. Let's also assume that as time passes things will move "backwards" toward 1800,s tech.

IMO this will make an enormous difference. I would say that with these resources, barring a disaster like some sort of blight or disease that they should be able to produce a surplus of food.

 

[6birds]

Of course this is all hypothetical and I'm shooting from the hip here but let's assume basic machinery like a large tractor w/disc, bushhog, mowers and a few smaller machines of various types that can be modified to perform nearly any basic task. Let's also throw in a skid loader, a spreader, wagon, a few 4X4s and say 3,000 gallons of fuel to start out with. Let's also assume that as time passes things will move "backwards" toward 1800,s tech.

We call that a "Farm".

 

[ThrottleJockey]

We call that a "Farm".

We call it a golf course For now.

 

[nate1865]

I still assert that just because there is a major catastrophe, that does not mean all of the sudden people will need to revert to subsistence farming to survive.

The assault it would take to completely compromise the world's breadbasket would be astounding. The issue will be more in logistical distribution of available food to where it's needed.

Were something to happen, people will find ways to get product to market. It may cost more and take longer, and you may not get what you always got before with those limitations - but eliminating the food market in the US such that people have to grow their own because there IS no other source is a pretty far-fetched and unrealistic scenario.

It would be better for those ill-suited towards farming to figure out how to work with farmers and be of mutual service. Specialization works and benefits all more.

 

[Eddie]

I still assert that just because there is a major catastrophe, that does not mean all of the sudden people will need to revert to subsistence farming to survive.

The assault it would take to completely compromise the world's breadbasket would be astounding. The issue will be more in logistical distribution of available food to where it's needed.

Were something to happen, people will find ways to get product to market. It may cost more and take longer, and you may not get what you always got before with those limitations - but eliminating the food market in the US such that people have to grow their own because there IS no other source is a pretty far-fetched and unrealistic scenario.

It would be better for those ill-suited towards farming to figure out how to work with farmers and be of mutual service. Specialization works and benefits all more.

Wasn't this one of the root causes of the Whiskey Rebellion? It was easier to convert excess grain into alcohol in order to transport it for sale.

 

[nate1865]

This meaning too much agricultural product?

I think we forget just how much food this nation produces at times.

During the Great Depression (SHTF) farmers were pouring out their milk - too much product and no way to sell it for a number of reasons.

 

[nate1865]

You guys all figure out how to grow stuff and I'll figure out how to distribute it to people who can give you something you value in return for it.

 

[BigMatt]

Back in the day, farmers were largely vegetarian. They ate the things that they could to get protein like eggs, milk and wild game, but the large part of their diet was vegetables and starches. The frontier farmer would have looked very thin and gangly to us. They worked all day long and had very little to eat that would put fat on them.

I think it will be interesting to see us after a few years of an agrarian lifestyle.