Forum concerns

[VUPDblue]

It also says that trolling will not be tolerated but some members (Smoking357 and Dredd for examples) were allowed to blatantly troll for days before being banned.

There is a very fuzzy line that separates trolling from voicing unpopular opinions. It's better to give someone the benefit of the doubt than to ban them at the first sign of perceived "trolling". Though your two examples were definitely trolls, it was better to make darn sure than to just can them at the first sign of trouble.

 

[esrice]

You're right and some of these can be addressed with a simple notification. Not to say people won't ignore it, but we can make the attempt.

I was talking more about 3rd party folks who have no dog in the fight, but always believe that the Staff is behind everything even remotely suspicious.

 

[4sarge]

Problem is, Sarge, that when you stop posting, all we hear is the other guys you described. The problem is actually made worse by not posting (respectfully).

Remember the good ol' days when it was just you and me. . . .

Evan, my problem with that is after 30 years of listening & tolerating drug users, drunks, scum bags in general, 10-96's, pedophiles, wife & kid abusers, just the normal folks ya know I made a promise to myself that I wouldn't have to ever tolerate that BS ever again. 1st day of retirement, I trashed every black pair of shoes, black boots, black belts that were mine vowing to never ever be forced to wear those again. I have cop t-shirts, hats, belt buckles etc that I never wear or probably will ever see the light of day again. My patience wore thin and it's so nice now to know that I Do Not ever have to be patient or tolerant again unless I want to be. I am the King of All that I Survey and It doesn't get any better than that my friend

 

[SavageEagle]

Thank you Christman for pointing this thread out. I've skimmed most of the thread because most of my concerns were not addressed, some were. However, out of what's been discussed so far, he's what I think hasn't been said.

I can say that I've never personally seen it handled any differently than how you describe above. If two people go to name-calling, either they are both infracted, or the decision is made to dump the thread entirely rather than sort through and hand out infractions.

The one issue I see is that because infractions aren't public record, both sides think that the "other guy" got a pass, when in reality they didn't.

We try EXTREMELY hard to be fair and balanced. Heck, I've personally given infractions to Advertising Supporters and my own Father!

First off, why does name calling have to be such a taboo thing? If two people are having a disagreement and it gets heated to the point where one calls the other an ignorant *******, why is that a bad thing? No one here on this board that I know walks through life without calling someone a name of some sort. Most of us here cuss to some degree or another. So why does these things warrant bans and public berating by the mod staff? You'll never get people to stop fighting and arguing. So instead of banning and infracting, why not jump into the conversation and try to defuse it instead of "knock it off or I'll ban you!" That's the equivalent of a parent just pulling off their belt and threatening a beating if their two kids don't stop fighting over the playstation controller.

I'll one-up you there. I banned an advertising supporter for a week!

The point is that we strive to be fair and un-biased but we commonly hear how we're not. I would LOVE to find a way to clear that up.

OOOooo wow, you temp banned an advertising supporter. You're lucky they still advertise here. And they got banned for what? Disagreeing with you? Arguing with another member? Was this a case of "Knock it off. Knock it off! Fine. *Ban*"? Or did you step in and try to converse with the person, try to defuse the situation, give them a chance to cool off, then banned them? Cause I can almost guarantee it wasn't the latter. I've NEVER seen the latter happen here. Ever.

And another thing about this. You actually BRAGGED about banning someone. And not just any member, but an ADVERTISING member. Is it like a game to see who can ban the most people around here, or who can clear out who's list first, or "looky who I banned today!"??? Your post is a major chunk of the problem most of us see around here. Perfect example of why you shouldn't be a moderator.

We don't discuss infractions with the membership at large because frankly, it is none of their business. Like a speeding ticket, it's between the person who issued it and the person who received it.

Which brings us to my next issue. Infractions. You just said it best. They're just like Speeding tickets.

Completely pointless. (Just so we're clear, my words, not yours.)

Then there really is no point to them. If they don't lead up to x-amount of infractions = x-amount of days banned, then why have them. If it works as you've stated, you're just a mom telling a kid "you're in trouble if I get to '3'...One!....I mean it!...TWO!!....You better stop mister....ONNNE....I'm serious...TWOOOOO...That's it, now! ...ONE!!!....

EXACTLY.

But there IS a point to them. First, they are a vehicle designed to keep all the MODs on the same page in references to a given situation. Second, they are reminders for the member earning one to follow the rules.

In my experience, more often than not I get a "sorry it won't happen again" response when I issue an infraction. For that, they are great.

That's what your super secret mod forum is for. If there's an issue with a member, you guys get to discuss how awful that person is behind the privacy curtain.

On top of that, you just showed how pointless they really are. They give you satisfaction from members sending you a message telling all about how sorry they are, blah blah blah.

Instead of handing out infractions, is it too hard to engage in public dialogue about the situation as it happens? If it can't be resolved, close the thread for a couple hours. Cool down time. If that doesn't work, close the thread for good. No reason to ban someone over a stupid argument.

Because they help establish a pattern of behavior, sorted by member, viewable by all the Staff at any time.

No reason for that. If a person is being a trouble maker, not only will the membership let you know, but I'm sure they will be a hinderence to more than one mod on a regular basis. I agree, trouble makers should not have to be dealt with. However, just because a few members disagree with a member, or even a couple mods disagree with a member, that's not a trouble maker. That's called stimulated dialogue. Can't have everyone patting each other on the back. Where I'm from, that's called a circle jerk.

That's exactly what comes up in a lot of our discussions. It's a very vicious circle. Many other large gun (platform/manufacturer) forums don't allow political discussion at all, from what I understand.

Ahh, and finally we get to my biggest squabble. Religion and Politics. Other larger gun forums don't allow political or religious discussion because of the shear size of the forum and what that forum centers around. Be it AR, SKS, 1911, Glock, what have you. They are fanboy hang outs and are moderated as such.

As far as I can recall, this place was set up as a hang out for ALL IN gun owners without any certain brand/model/subject/et al as the focus. I recall this place being a hang out for local, like minded people with all sorts of interests. Granted, no one comes to a car forum looking for gun advice, and vice verse, but for members who frequent boards such as this, why should any lawful subject be banned? If you don't like religious/political discussion/arguments, move your mouse to a different thread or stop reading the current thread that turned religious/political.

In this day and age in our Country, religion and politics are the two largest subjects we see everyday. Be it Christianity and Islam, or Liberals and Conservatives. These subjects WILL come up, banned or not. If this is suppose to be an Indiana Gun Owner gathering place, banning these subjects no worse than saying "I'm too lazy to deal with these arguments so I'll just ban them." Nothing more, nothing less.



And as far as equal moderation, and less of it, goes.... It's not happening. It never has. Bias and the "Good Ole Boy" network seem to be fixtures here. members of the "In crowd" who are buddy buddy in real life with the mods and Mike are allowed almost free reign to do what they want with little more than a "No-no, don't do that" time after time after time. Hell, even some members who AREN'T part of that group are treated the same way. Some people get banned over trivial crap while others are allowed to berate members constantly, over and over, everyday.

Equal moderation of this board has been non-existent for quite some time, but has been a real growing problem in the last year.



Also, one personal complaint. You disabled my edit feature simply because I was editing out copyrighted material in my posts. Dumb as it was, it happened. Ok. But to STILL not allow me the edit feature? What does that accomplish? Showing I have proofreading issues? Seriously, this childish "punishment" has gone on long enough. Ktnx.



These are my issues. I said my piece. Have a good day.

 

[Eddie]

Aww man more policy writing? I hate spelling everything out, just to have people push the line in an effort to "see who can get the closest".

I like VUPDblue's Rule #1.

I would say that the easiest thing would be to put the discretion in choosing not to punish as opposed to putting the discretion in choosing to punish. The current rules give discretion to choose to punish.

For example: If I say "Don't cross the line. If you cross the line then I get to hit you with a stick unless I choose not to hit you with a stick." Then you have a very clear understanding of what the rules are.

On the other hand if I say "Don't cross the line or do anyting else that I don't like. If you cross the line or do anything else that I don't like then I get to hit you with a stick." Then you aren't really sure what you can and can't do and you are going to get all butthurt when I hit you with a stick for looking at me the wrong way.

 

[VUPDblue]

Ryan, if you want to discuss a particular issue, like an adult, and peacefully as has been happening for the last hundred or so posts, please feel free. If you just want to point out all your perceived injustices, then this isn't the thread for you.

 

[Colt556]

Um...that's just weird!! ^

I recieved an infraction for the same thing or something pretty similar. When I protested about others using the same word and worse and that the Mod and his buddies can do as they please I was told "Don't patronize me". Nice reply from a Mod. I've been quietly following this thread and others keeping my mouth shut but in my opinion there is an unfairness to the handing out of infractions. I'm over it now but since it was mentioned I thought I'd pipe up. All the time I've been here and I've had 2 infractions. The one mentioned and one for accidentally posting a reply to an IM in the sellers classified. Although I see ppl leave comments in the classifieds dly w/o infractions now. I'm sure it's difficult to be a Mod here but if you agree to do the job you should be diligent in your efforts to do it properly and fairly. If it's to hard or you can't do it w/o bias don't do the job.

 

[Andre46996]

All the negativity will breed and it will destroy INGO. INGO will always be around partially because the classifieds are such a big draw but do you want INGO to just be classifieds and a bunch of hate?

When I come here I hit the "New Post" button, normally I don't see anything gun related it is all "Cop shots Dog" "TSA wants your package" "UN wants to void constitution" "Somebody in Texas doesn't understand rules" .

I came here a long time ago and came here because of the knowledge shared by the members. I really wish it could go back to that.

A shining example of what I am talking about.... I am sure this looks great to an outsider who happens to either be visiting or monitoring the site..
https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo..._he_poured_out_his_wrath_upon_the_wicked.html

 

[SavageEagle]

Ryan, if you want to discuss a particular issue, like an adult, and peacefully as has been happening for the last hundred or so posts, please feel free. If you just want to point out all your perceived injustices, then this isn't the thread for you.

If you can't address me like an adult and discuss the issues I've pointed out, then, once again, you've shown why being a moderator isn't for you.

 

[Que]

I recieved an infraction for the same thing or something pretty similar. When I protested about others using the same word and worse and that the Mod and his buddies can do as they please I was told "Don't patronize me". Nice reply from a Mod. I've been quietly following this thread and others keeping my mouth shut but in my opinion there is an unfairness to the handing out of infractions. I'm over it now but since it was mentioned I thought I'd pipe up. All the time I've been here and I've had 2 infractions. The one mentioned and one for accidentally posting a reply to an IM in the sellers classified. Although I see ppl leave comments in the classifieds dly w/o infractions now. I'm sure it's difficult to be a Mod here but if you agree to do the job you should be diligent in your efforts to do it properly and fairly. If it's to hard or you can't do it w/o bias don't do the job.

I can't comment on your interactions with someone else, but how do you KNOW who receives an infraction from the classifieds? I very rarely read all the classified ads. If I did that, I would not have time for my own life. I normally act on ads that have been reported, but I definitely do not go on the hunt to impose infractions.

Also, usually members only report early bumps and discussions in the classifieds, which is a great help in allowing other ads to go to the top of the list to be seen.

 

[VUPDblue]

I will try to address some of these points.

First off, why does name calling have to be such a taboo thing? If two people are having a disagreement and it gets heated to the point where one calls the other an ignorant *******, why is that a bad thing?
Because it's against the rules. The rules of this house clearly state that name-calling and insulting others is not allowed. This is an absolute. Folks who post here are expected, even in heated discussions, to not insult or name-call others.



OOOooo wow, you temp banned an advertising supporter. You're lucky they still advertise here. And they got banned for what? Disagreeing with you? Arguing with another member? Was this a case of "Knock it off. Knock it off! Fine. *Ban*"? Or did you step in and try to converse with the person, try to defuse the situation, give them a chance to cool off, then banned them? Cause I can almost guarantee it wasn't the latter. I've NEVER seen the latter happen here. Ever.
You don't even have one fact from this, nor do you even know what it stemmed from. Why make pointed accusations based on zero knowledge?

And another thing about this. You actually BRAGGED about banning someone. And not just any member, but an ADVERTISING member. Is it like a game to see who can ban the most people around here, or who can clear out who's list first, or "looky who I banned today!"??? Your post is a major chunk of the problem most of us see around here. Perfect example of why you shouldn't be a moderator.
No I didn't brag about banning someone. I illustrated a point that my moderation is fair and unbiased.


Which brings us to my next issue. Infractions. You just said it best. They're just like Speeding tickets.

Completely pointless. (Just so we're clear, my words, not yours.)



EXACTLY.



That's what your super secret mod forum is for. If there's an issue with a member, you guys get to discuss how awful that person is behind the privacy curtain.
That's not the way to solve problems.

On top of that, you just showed how pointless they really are. They give you satisfaction from members sending you a message telling all about how sorry they are, blah blah blah.
It's nice to see someone realize their mistakes and vow not to repeat them.

Instead of handing out infractions, is it too hard to engage in public dialogue about the situation as it happens? If it can't be resolved, close the thread for a couple hours. Cool down time. If that doesn't work, close the thread for good. No reason to ban someone over a stupid argument.



No reason for that. If a person is being a trouble maker, not only will the membership let you know, but I'm sure they will be a hinderence to more than one mod on a regular basis. I agree, trouble makers should not have to be dealt with. However, just because a few members disagree with a member, or even a couple mods disagree with a member, that's not a trouble maker. That's called stimulated dialogue. Can't have everyone patting each other on the back. Where I'm from, that's called a circle jerk.
One person's idea of a trouble maker is not always the same as the next. There are members of this site who would label someone as such simply because they don't agree with their opinions.



Ahh, and finally we get to my biggest squabble. Religion and Politics. Other larger gun forums don't allow political or religious discussion because of the shear size of the forum and what that forum centers around. Be it AR, SKS, 1911, Glock, what have you. They are fanboy hang outs and are moderated as such.

As far as I can recall, this place was set up as a hang out for ALL IN gun owners without any certain brand/model/subject/et al as the focus. I recall this place being a hang out for local, like minded people with all sorts of interests. Granted, no one comes to a car forum looking for gun advice, and vice verse, but for members who frequent boards such as this, why should any lawful subject be banned? If you don't like religious/political discussion/arguments, move your mouse to a different thread or stop reading the current thread that turned religious/political.

In this day and age in our Country, religion and politics are the two largest subjects we see everyday. Be it Christianity and Islam, or Liberals and Conservatives. These subjects WILL come up, banned or not. If this is suppose to be an Indiana Gun Owner gathering place, banning these subjects no worse than saying "I'm too lazy to deal with these arguments so I'll just ban them." Nothing more, nothing less.

It's not a matter of laziness. It's a matter of supporting the spirit of this site. This site is for gun owners of all walks of life. Allowing dialogue that makes otherwise commonly interested folks feel alienated is not supporting the spirit of what INGO is all about. I'm sorry that it led to a prohibition against certain topics, but it did.



And as far as equal moderation, and less of it, goes.... It's not happening. It never has. Bias and the "Good Ole Boy" network seem to be fixtures here. members of the "In crowd" who are buddy buddy in real life with the mods and Mike are allowed almost free reign to do what they want with little more than a "No-no, don't do that" time after time after time. Hell, even some members who AREN'T part of that group are treated the same way. Some people get banned over trivial crap while others are allowed to berate members constantly, over and over, everyday.

I would like to know who you perceive to be the "in crowd" and also to see some examples of their behavior that you think should have been handled differently.

Equal moderation of this board has been non-existent for quite some time, but has been a real growing problem in the last year.



Also, one personal complaint. You disabled my edit feature simply because I was editing out copyrighted material in my posts. Dumb as it was, it happened. Ok. But to STILL not allow me the edit feature? What does that accomplish? Showing I have proofreading issues? Seriously, this childish "punishment" has gone on long enough. Ktnx.



These are my issues. I said my piece. Have a good day.

 

[sparky241]

I just went back and read through that thread. After firecop was removed, the thread took a different turn and almost nobody "bashed" him. Also, it was never closed at all. Leaving it open wasn't a vindictive act since folks forgot about him after page one. If it came across different I apologize.

yes it was, i was trying to post in it when i hit the submit button it said i didnt have axcess to that thread. it was closed, then reopened

 

[Benny]

I came here a long time ago and came here because of the knowledge shared by the members. I really wish it could go back to that.

The good ol' days were fun, but with the number of pot stirrers there are now, it will never happen...I still like the site as much today as I did when I first joined though.

I was told by a MOD a couple days ago ASS is not a censored word yet if I look at my infractions I have one for spelling it A$$.

That's why I spell everything out.

 

[VUPDblue]

I'll take your word for it, but I'm not seeing a record of it ever being closed.

 

[sparky241]

Drama and internet forums go hand in hand...... can't have one without the other......

wasnt always that way, it use to be alot more civil

 

[Que]

A shining example of what I am talking about.... I am sure this looks great to an outsider who happens to either be visiting or monitoring the site..
https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo..._he_poured_out_his_wrath_upon_the_wicked.html

I really don't want to get into a long thread of tit-for-tat. What exactly is your concern over this thread and what would you suggest. Also, what would a person viewing the thread infer from its contents?

 

[Andre46996]

I really don't want to get into a long thread of tit-for-tat. What exactly is your concern over this thread and what would you suggest. Also, what would a person viewing the thread infer from its contents?

..and he poured out his wrath upon the wicked gun haters of the nation .. and it was good ...

Leprosy, Plague and Other Visitors to New York

Looks like we condone God smiting those who not agree with our lifestyle.

Que I hate to use this reference but I must..

Would it also be ok then if it said???

....and he poured out his wrath upon the wicked African-Americans of the nation ..and it was good...

 

[hornadylnl]

One of the first things needed is a lift of the 50 post classifieds rule. It would eliminate the useless posts that new members create and clean up the board. But then, what would all the mod wannabes do without having newbs to stalk and prey and neg rep into oblivion with "Only xx more posts to 50 posts" responses. Am I not intelligent enough to pick and choose who I want to deal with in the classifieds that I need a nanny to cull the classifieds pool for me? BTW, I haven't bought or sold anything in there for months.

Status updates. Don't those threads fly in the face of the 50 post rule? Is what happens in those threads the spirit of what this board is supposed to be about? "I've got eleventy billion posts in 1 thread!" I've seen the mods participate in those threads and they seem to delight in the wolves coming in and bragging on the prey they've killed in the break room or general politics.

I fear the staff is looking to the wrong people for the disrespect that is rampant in this site. There is a whole group of people here who constantly rag on the tin foiler crowd. So much so, that they can't simply ignore them, they have to all gang up on the person in every thread they post in and start new troll threads to antagonize them. They complain when the tin foilers post and they complain when they don't. They have to complain about them in other threads and other parts of the board. They have to run to the status update thread and brag about what they said to so and so to get all the kudos from the rest of the hive mind.

As I said in the bus thread. We all know the only reasonable and mature way to get your neighbor to turn down his blaring stereo is to crank yours up. If one's opinion doesn't fall in line with the hive mind, they get labeled haters, tin foilers, etc and the wolf pack springs into action to save the internets for the world.

 

[singlesix]

I really don't want to get into a long thread of tit-for-tat. What exactly is your concern over this thread and what would you suggest. Also, what would a person viewing the thread infer from its contents?

• Gun Owners are like other groups - diverse
• There is "ONE" in every group
• The First Amendment is something to be protected just like the Second Amendment
• If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen.

 

[sparky241]

If you ever have a specific question, you can always PM me (or any Mod) and we can try and explain our decisions a bit more clearly. Obviously we can't comment on who got what infractions, but I'd rather you ask us then make broad assumptions about why we did what we did.

That goes for everyone too.

it isnt you or vupd that concern me. i pm fenway and scutter and pami about a thread of mine that was closed. non replied to this day. sorry but i do think its disrespectful to ignore someone unless they are being a jerk, with that said i wasnt being a jerk to any of them.