external safety hatred syndrome

[ATF Consumer]

So then...this wasn't an actual study published in any gun mag anywhere...?

Well, it was an actual study, but no, it was not published anywhere.

As for your "participants" ... were they a cross section of people who train to flick the safety off during the draw mixed in with people who don't train that way?

Yes, there were a mix of both.

Were they people who EDC the 1911?

Mixed group.

Did the people who took longer to take the safety off also take longer to get on target for a follow up shot (regardless of starting from safety on/safety off beginnings)?

No, the slowness was only noticed during the draw, up to the first round being fired.

Would the group that does not practice taking the safety off on the draw be willing to practice doing exactly that for a given amount of time and then "re-take" your test?

I'm sure that can be arranged, but common sense and logic tells you that taking an extra step to reach your target can't possibly make you faster than not taking that extra step.

Did you use a stop watch and publish your findings anywhere? (Including threads in this forum or any other?)

No...but the discussions had been had afterward, and I'm sure some of that had been posted on here, but no official posting. We had some training during the PW shoots I have participated in and I can't recall a single 1911 shooter disagreeing with the results they experienced first hand...


Have you performed any type of study to refute my claims, or are you defending an opinion?

 

[ATF Consumer]

Born John Dean Cooper...(snip).

As I had indicated earlier...recommendations from military and other trainers, but not designed to be carried in Condition 1, as so many misinformed posters have continually pressed as fact. I beg to differ and that is my biggest point of my posting in this thread...too many are posting without really knowing the facts.

 

[Amishman44]

Born John Dean Cooper, but known to his friends as "Jeff", Cooper was a Marine Lieutenant Colonel who served in both World War II and the Korean War resigning his commission in 1956.[citation needed] He received a bachelor's degree in political science from Stanford University and, in the mid-1960s, a master's degree in history from the University of California, Riverside.
In 1976, Cooper founded the American Pistol Institute (API) in Paulden, Arizona (later the Gunsite Training Center). Cooper began teaching shotgun and rifle classes to law enforcement and military personnel as well as civilians and did on-site training for individuals and groups from around the world. He sold the firm in 1992 but continued living on the Paulden ranch. He was known for his advocacy of large caliber handguns, especially the Colt 1911 and the .45 ACP cartridge.
Cooper died at his home on the afternoon of Monday, September 25, 2006.[2]
[edit] The Modern Technique

Cooper's modern technique defines pragmatic use of the pistol for personal protection. The modern technique emphasizes two-handed shooting using the Weaver stance, replacing the once-prevalent one-handed shooting. The five elements of the modern technique are:

• A large caliber pistol, preferably a semi-auto
• The Weaver stance
• The presentation
• The flash sight picture
• The compressed surprise trigger break[3]

Cooper favored the Colt M1911 and its variants. There are several conditions of readiness in which such a weapon can be carried. Cooper promulgated most of the following terms:

• Condition Four: Chamber empty, no magazine, hammer down.
• Condition Three: Chamber empty, full magazine in place, hammer down.
• Condition Two: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer down.
• Condition One: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety on.
• Condition Zero: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety off.

Some of these configurations are safer than others (for instance, a single action pistol without a firing pin safety such as a transfer bar system should never be carried in Condition 2), while others are quicker to fire the gun (Condition 1). In the interest of consistent training, most agencies that issue the 1911 specify the condition in which it is to be carried as a matter of local doctrine.


Thanks, but I prefer Mr. Cooper's studies.

Jeff Cooper - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


All due respect.....

Well said...and thank you for the background information!

After reading many of the responses on this thread...I think it's important to state that the choice of weapons utilized for personal defense is a very personal issue!

A lot depends on one's personal experience and training as to what type of weapon is utilized (1911, striker-fired, DAO, etc.) for personal defense.

The rest depends on how comfortable an individual is with each type of design available to them. Carrying 'cocked-n-locked' (Condition 1) for someone who trains with that method is probably considered fast for them. Someone who carries a Glock pistol probably considers that fast for them. Personally, even when carrying a Glock, I carried it w/o a bullet in the chamber...again, for personal reasons...I didn't want to get in the habit of chambering a round when I leave the home...only to forget to unchamber it upon returning home (extra-safety for around the kids)...so we trained that way! I am willing to risk that I have an extra 1/2 second to chamber a round rather than have a child of mine pick up a loaded pistol. (And BTW, I would never practice flicking the safety off (or placing one's finger on the trigger of any gun) of a Condition 1 - 1911 until AFTER it's cleared the top of the holster and the muzzle is pointed at the target! Anything else can lead to a misfire...!)

Habits can be good or bad, depending upon how you use them! Having consistent habits, especially when training with firearms, is a great way to be both safe and consistent with use!

If you train a certain way...then GREAT! If it works for you, then by all means keep doing it! If you don't train the same way every time, then I suggest you put one together...speak with others who have the same type gun that you do and see how they do it. You may end up picking up one idea from one individual and another idea from another individual and piece together your own way of doing things. Either way, be consistent! It'll make handling and training with your weapon much safer for both you and those around you!

Have a nice day... !

 

[JetGirl]

Have you performed any type of study to refute my claims, or are you defending an opinion?

Just like you, I only have my own personal experience to draw from.
Which is, since the amount of time it takes my 1911 to exit my holster *includes* employing the thumb safety function before the muzzle ever clears the holster's opening...the amount of time from draw to fire is the exact same either way.
I don't "draw, pause, flick safety, sight in, fire"...the safety is flicked before it's ever out. No +/- time at all.

 

[ATF Consumer]

Just like you, I only have my own personal experience to draw from.

Actually, I have other's experience to draw from as well, as I have witnessed this during training and tests at the range.

Which is, since the amount of time it takes my 1911 to exit my holster *includes* employing the thumb safety function before the muzzle ever clears the holster's opening...the amount of time from draw to fire is the exact same either way.
I don't "draw, pause, flick safety, sight in, fire"...the safety is flicked before it's ever out. No +/- time at all.

Was this in the mirror or in a live firing situation?

The best results are when you have no clue when you are supposed to draw, then all of a sudden a moving target appears and you must react.

From my findings...memory motions are not always reliable. In a heated moment, they are sometimes forgotten.

 

[JetGirl]

Was this in the mirror or in a live firing situation?

Live fire.

 

[groovatron]

Thumb safeties on a 1911 were never a problem for me. I stopped carrying them because of the grip safety. I don't trust them and experienced random problems while training. I have also witnessed folks having trouble with the grip safety on an XD. If you find yourself in a position where you have an injured hand and still need to defend yourself with said hand, a grip safety could cause some BIG problems.

 

[Mayday671]

It all comes down to practice, no matter what you carry you will be less safe, less accurate, and lees prepared if you don't actually go and shoot the thing. Also you need to shoot the weapon under stress, once you dial in your accuracy start performing stress shoots. You will see that people are not as prepared as they think they are. Just because you go to the range and shoot well doesn't mean your ready when your put in a situation to defend your life. Get your breathing heavy and you heart rate up and shoot your targets. If you miss even one round consider it a fail, if your in a public setting and you shoot and miss think about where that round may go. You may someday find yourself in a situation where you need to fire but its unsafe to do so because of the environment near or behind your target. Practice Practice Practice. No different than the many people i've made runs on because they shot themselves cleaning there weapons. If you start cleaning without disassembling first then your plain dumb.

 

[88GT]

I had a cousin shoot himself in his butt. For me personally I like to keep the chamber empty till I need to shoot. It was how I was brought up and I'd rather not soot myself in the butt.

Under what circumstances did said cousin blister his own arse? Because I can only come up with scenarios that include a special kind of stupid for that one, or at least a really, really negligent kind of stupid.

Final note, I take it all the manual safety haters never use the safety on a long gun?

Closer to never than otherwise.

I dislike manual safeties in general from a purely personal standpoint. Or perhaps it would be more accurate to say that I dislike the change in mindset I have to employ with them because using them is not something I normally do. I don't use them on my long guns, and the few handguns I do shoot don't have them or I don't use at the range. My EDC is a Glock so I don't have to worry with one for carry purposes.

 

[sparky241]

I know 5 people who have shot themselves or others.

They all had manual safeties.

Oh...

wait..

No they didnt.



I have no idea why someone would hate a manual safety, or hate guns without safeties.

Guns are dangerous, either way.

yeah they shot themselves, as in they pulled the trigger instead of following the safety rules.dbl action pistols are safe as long as the handler follows the rules

 

[dom1104]

yeah they shot themselves, as in they pulled the trigger instead of following the safety rules.dbl action pistols are safe as long as the handler follows the rules

Thats like saying an airplane is safe untill you fall asleep at the controls.

 

[bwframe]

Just like you, I only have my own personal experience to draw from.

Actually, I have other's experience to draw from as well, as I have witnessed this during training and tests at the range.

You folks might consider looking into the shooting sports. We test this stuff out every week, not with experiences, but timers and score sheets.

 

[dpetreikis]

I personally wouldnt say that I hate external safeties, per se... but feel that they're unnecessary on anything except single action semi-automatics. Good gun safety skills, trigger finger discipline, being mindful of how you handle your firearm and yourself can go a long way toward preventing NDs. The long, heavy double action pull of guns so equipped has always served me well as a "safety." As for Glocks and other similar guns - again... gun safety.. trigger discipline... Know and be aware of what you are doing when handling a firearm.

 

[JetGirl]

You folks might consider looking into the shooting sports. We test this stuff out every week, not with experiences, but timers and score sheets.

I've noodled that for awhile and asked around in my area, too. It does sound like a ton of fun...but also sounds like it coincides with most times that I don't have free at least until the coming fall.

 

[RelicHound]

I don't hate them,I just can't get use to them. my current carry has a frame safety and Ive tried and tried to get use to it but after carry glocks and getting use to those I just cant get the hang of an external safety. If I think about it I can draw and disengage the safety in one smooth motion..but Ive found that "under pressure" or being timed I fail 9 times out of 10 to disengage the safety. with practice I could overcome this,Im sure...but I just feel more comfortable carrying a pistol without a safety..for now.

 

[Jay]

I don't hate them,I just can't get use to them. my current carry has a frame safety and Ive tried and tried to get use to it but after carry glocks and getting use to those I just cant get the hang of an external safety. If I think about it I can draw and disengage the safety in one smooth motion..but Ive found that "under pressure" or being timed I fail 9 times out of 10 to disengage the safety. with practice I could overcome this,Im sure...but I just feel more comfortable carrying a pistol without a safety..for now.

If I may use your example, sir......

Muscle memory works exactly the same way for those WITH manual safety's. Once you become proficient with it, you don't have to think about it, you just do it. Be glad we all have the option to employ whatever system suits us best.

 

[RelicHound]

If I may use your example, sir......

Muscle memory works exactly the same way for those WITH manual safety's. Once you become proficient with it, you don't have to think about it, you just do it. Be glad we all have the option to employ whatever system suits us best.

yep..If you develope that muscle memory then you'll have no problems. for some its easier to develope,I reckon. I started carrying with no safety so thats what I learned{simply draw,point and fire}...having to re-learn something is my brick wall. but I will say that while practicing with my 1911 I can see where once you developed that muscle memory you'll be just as quick as you would be with no safety..its really nothing to draw and position your thumb so that as soon as your pistol is cear your thumb has already disengaged the safety. ive seen it with my dad..he is just as fast at drawing and putting rounds in the target with his 1911 as I am at drawing and putting rounds in the target with a glock...probably not the best example as he has forgotten more than I know about defensive pistol shooting. but you get the idea.

 

[Tater22LR]

Cocked and locked just seems a little less safe than hammer down. Opinions vary.

 

[JetGirl]

Cocked and locked just seems a little less safe than hammer down. Opinions vary.

Not really. Cocked and locked with the half cock notch (and especially 80 series with the FB block) totally trumps hammer down resting on the FP if it gets bumped/dropped/whatever.
The more important question here is can you safely get the hammer down?
Personally, I'd rather not. It'd be defeating the purpose of that design, and if you slip ...you get an unintended BANG. No thanks.
There is absolutely no reason to do so.

 

[quicksdraw]

I've started shooting 1911s nearly 50 years ago and feel safe using one as my carry piece (carried locked and cocked). After all, the 1911 was designed for condition 1 carry by one of the greatest firearms inventors in history. The safe action trigger was given to us by a curtain rod manufacturer.