Lessons learned from the Zimmerman trial.

[cobber]

Seventeen is a young adult, not a child.

Eventually the media and government want to infantilize the entire population, and thereby justify 'protecting' us from ALL dangers real and imagined.

One of my personal favorites is that the courts have basically held that absent advice from an attorney versed in immigration law, an illegal alien would have no idea that committing and being convicted of criminal offenses might actually get him deported. (As if being here illegally weren't enough by itself.)

 

[Indy317]

...can you PLEASE explain how the fact that Martin had a criminal record matters, but it doesn't matter that Zimmerman had a worse criminal record?

The criminal records, text messages, Facebook posts, community involvement, etc. of both men matter in a case like this. It all should be given to a jury, with each side being able to explain way the actions, or state why they aren't important. There are many speculations made in this case. No one can prove anything for either party, but these assumptions are made anyway. TM's recent incidents that might involve criminal and/or violent actions are just as important as GZ. However, I think the prosecutor and the defense in this case didn't want any of that evidence if both sides were to be allowed in.

Yes, I know, but can you explain the difference between the two? What makes Martin's record define him as a "thug" and Zommerman's is totally left out of all the discussions?

Time and unknown factual basis, but mostly how recent these arrests and incidents were. GZ's 2005 arrest seemed likely to stem from alcohol intoxication, hence an alcohol class was part of the sentencing/plea deal. They were felonies, which isn't surprising as in the "war on crime," many incidents have become upgraded to felony status. It is used by some states to get folks to plead to low class misdemeanors. I've read about the arrest, but not the actual probable cause. Restraining orders, dual ones at that? Who knows what to believe in those situations. However, all this occurred six to eight years ago. I have no idea of GZ changed or not, but I hope he did given he has a license to carry a firearm. As far as TM, I read no where of his arrest. I've read of possible criminal actions involving stolen property and narcotics. Unfortunately for TM, he was at that age where lots of stuff is documented, just like GZ's swear words on the 911 recording. Also, the defense could have said that GZ changed, his incidents were in the past, he was trying to do right. If all the stuff I've read is true, the state would have had to defend TM's character with a current suspension or expulsion from school, recent statements about drug dealing, recent incident where he was found with stolen property, recent photos showing guns and narcotic usage.

In this case, time played would have been better for GZ, not TM.

 

[HoughMade]

I've learned that whichever side you're on, you're likely to believe "X" guy was 100% right in everything and "Y" guy was 100% wrong in everything and both sides should have T-shirts printed up.

This is getting nuts.

 

[rvb]

But was not the reason Z got out of his car was becuase the operator (not 9-1-1 since Z called the non-emergency #) wanted Z to verify the address/location he was calling from and Z could not read the number on the house. In addition at some other point when the operator told Z it was not needed for him to chase/look for TM that Z said OK and was walking back to his vehicle.

those aren't the facts people WANT to hear (though it seems to be what the jury heard). They hear that Z got out of his vehicle, despite a "police command" not to, and actively chased TM. Any other facts be damned.

If we assume for a moment what you describe is how it went down, and TM backtracked and attacked Z, then Z did absolutely nothing wrong. However, if we assume Z did actually CHASE TM on foot, then it's possible TM was in a position he felt he had to defend himself from Z (still not absolute) and it escallated from there.

The evidence simply creates enough reasonable doubt that there is no way you can convict Z of the latter.

Z's job as neighboorhood watch captain was to look out for the neighborhood and that entials following, calling in, asking strangers what they are doing in the area. Is that not the job of a NWC?

I believe you are describing a security guard.

Why a NWC or security guard? Sounds like what we used to call GOOD NEIGHBORS who look out for each other.

If my neighborhood has had a rash of break-ins, I see someone I don't recognize walking between houses, am I not allowed to observe? Maybe talk to them so they know someone's watching (ask if they're lost, etc)? Maybe make a non-emergency call to police if I really suspect a problem?

At my last residence in Maryland, we had a rash of vandalizm. One night I heard a spray can rattling outside. I could have ignored it (probably my neightbor's fence getting tagged, not my property/problem). Instead I stepped out, pretended to need to go to the mailbox... made a little **** chat with the kid... made an excuse not to rush back inside ("wow, nice night, hate to waste it in the A/C"). He got the idea I was keeping an eye on things and went on his way. If there was vandalizm that night, it wasn't on our street. [No, I didn't follow him home]. I later helped the PD figure out who was behind the vandalizm, the dumb group of kids had their "tags" on myspace, along w/ a bunch of vids showing other illegal activity. I had our neighborhood association give the info to the PD so I wouldn't have retaliation issues. They ended up w/ community service sentences.

In that example, if the kid had jumped me because he didn't like this creapy ass cracker sticking his nose out of his house, would I have been "wrong" for defending myself? Would I have been the aggressor? Would I have been the "cop wanna be?" Would the fact that I didn't have a title like "NWC" or wasn't a hired guard make a difference? I don't think so........

There's a difference between being an aggressor, and being involved. Neighborhoods won't get better by drawing our blinds tighter to the outside world.

I just thought of another example, when I was in college.... I happened to look out the window of my slum off-campus apt and saw a guy going down the street looking in car windows, obviously deciding which one to break in to. I did nothing more than step out on my porch, pretended to dial 3 numbers on the phone while looking at him, he sees me, and takes off running!

Did that make me an aggressor? Would either situation justify having my head bounced off the concrete and my nose broke? Do I give up my self-defense claim once I pass through my front door or step out of my car? Does the fact I might be carrying a means for self defense change the answers to those questions? Seems many (including here on INGO) think so...

Sounds like those 6 random women were more my "peers" than many INGO members would be...

-rvb

 

[David Rose]

Well put Ryan.

 

[rvb]

I might as well put up some of the lessons I learned....

1) "don't talk to the police" may have backfired for Z if he had followed that mantra religiously. His consistency in his story, how much the police chief believed him, and his reactions to news of TM dying were a solid part of his defense. His minor "from the bushes" comment bit him to some degree. So -if- you talk, don't use common expressions, keep it very literal/detailed. The advise not to talk is still sound, but not all-damning apparently.

2) Prosecution tried to make a case out of his gun's lack of manual safety, that it was fully loaded to N+1, that it had a light trigger... in the end it didn't matter.

3) If you're going to have an on-going discussion w/ police dispatch / 911, communicate clearly what you are doing. If they say "you don't have to do that" don't just say "ok," say "ok, I'm staying by my car" or "I'm getting out to get you that address."

4) I always tell folks to consider the very strong possibility they'll be doing their fighting from the ground, this is just another example.

5) Kids can make drugs from anything, even skittles and tea. I'm not saying that's what TM was doing, but it's something I learned during the news coverage. Parents, know what you're kids are up to.... I like both skittles and tea, but never knew I could make the combo even more fun!

6) From the other viewpoint, if you think someone is following/stalking you and you can evade, do it, don't confront. If TM was scared for his safety, HIS call should have been to 911, not to his girlfriend. Dispatch may have put 2+2 together with both on the line. I have another "when I was in college" story there... Late night, guy coming at me on the sidewalk and we'll eventually pass each other... something felt weird so I crossed the street to use the sidewalk on the other side. He did the same. I crossed back; so did he. I found an alley and bolted down it and took an indirect route home. (no circling back and confronting).

7) If Obama had a son....

-rvb

 

[jedi]

I believe you are describing a security guard.

Which may be ture as I'm not sure as I've never been a NWC nor involved in NW programs.
Here is the description of what a NWC does in some county called Walton.
Walton County Sheriff's Office

those aren't the facts people WANT to hear (though it seems to be what the jury heard). They hear that Z got out of his vehicle, despite a "police command" not to, and actively chased TM. Any other facts be damned.

I made that comment asking if that is indeed the facts or not?
Does anyone have a timeline of how items went down?
I don't have have not kept up with the case so my statement is based on what I have read here and elsewhere by others.

 

[inxs]

A gang banger wannabe is preferable to a cop wannabe......

 

[Fredo]

The last thing you should ever do is put yourself into a situation where you must choose whether to use or not use your firearm for personal protection. If all else fails indeed use it. however, try to get out, leave, defuse talk your way out etc before you need to make that decision. He should have stayed in his car. He chose to escalate the situation be placing himself in a direct confrontation with Mr. Martin. The smart thing to do would have been stay in his car until LEO arrived. You MUST have the proper mindset when carrying.

 

[Jack Burton]

Yes, I know, but can you explain the difference between the two? What makes Martin's record define him as a "thug" and Zommerman's is totally left out of all the discussions?

Because M's thuggishness is directly related to his attack on Z. The judge was overturned by a higher court on several occasions throughout these proceedings and the entire verdict would have been vacated for her ruling that his texts from his phone could not be used. She instructed the jury to evaluate and compare the relative abililites of each person (paraphrase) yet she kept the defense from outlining just what the "abilities" of M was when it came to his enjoyment and experience of street fighting as documented by himself.

 

[Jack Burton]

The last thing you should ever do is put yourself into a situation where you must choose whether to use or not use your firearm for personal protection. If all else fails indeed use it. however, try to get out, leave, defuse talk your way out etc before you need to make that decision. He should have stayed in his car. He chose to escalate the situation be placing himself in a direct confrontation with Mr. Martin. The smart thing to do would have been stay in his car until LEO arrived. You MUST have the proper mindset when carrying.

Unfortunately the above paragraph has nothing to do with the reality of the case.

 

[Doug]

Just for the record:
Zimmerman said he lost sight of Martin and got out of his truck.
Police operator asked if he was following him. When Zimmerman said, "Yes," the operator said, "OK, we don't need you to do that." Zimmerman then said, "Oh, OK."
Zimmerman said that was when he turned around and headed back toward his truck and that Martin confronted him while he was on his way to his truck.

The operator DID NOT give the instruction to not follow before Zimmerman got out of the truck. Zimmerman DID NOT disobey any instructions from any police person.

 

[cobber]

Be born 100 years ago?

Go back in time machine and derail the "New Deal" and subsequent legislation?

Videotape your every waking moment?

 

[No2rdame]

You know, I agreed with the verdict from this case, from a legal aspect; however, can you PLEASE explain how the fact that Martin had a criminal record matters, but it doesn't matter that Zimmerman had a worse criminal record? I've not watched anything on television about this case until today. Many outlets are voicing disagreement with the verdict, but the more I read about this case on INGO, the more I believe the media is used as a crutch for those who want to hold fast to certain beliefs concerning Martin.

I can't say I've learned anything from the case, but I'm learning a lot about other things.

I'm merely drawing the dichotomy that exists in our society today. People portray Martin as an angelic, innocent child whose death must be avenged at all costs when in reality he was none of those things, but when a truly innocent child is killed senselessly the public and media don't show the same regard for wanting the child's death avenged in the same fashion.

I am not saying that Trayvon's criminal record should be used as justification for his death, but why is his slate cleared so he can become a martyr when children who truly have done nothing wrong die and people just don't seem to care all that much?

 

[jedi]

Be born 100 years ago?

Go back in time machine and derail the "New Deal" and subsequent legislation?

Videotape your every waking moment?

might have to go back a bit further not sure but 2 bigger issues were/are
the creation of the federal reserver that is close to over (100 year experiement which congress i think next year has to renew or scrap and they will renew)
lincoln's power grab when the south wanted to leave

i say lincoln's power grab started the entire fall, the new deal cemented it.

 

[U.S. Patriot]

I'm going to follow anyone that looks suspicious. I'll call it state watch.

 

[rsklar]

I learned that a P-11 Kel-Tec get's the job done. Oh and set up your legal defense web-site quickly.

 

[singlesix]

Bigotry is alive and well (from all shades on the rainbow).

 

[churchmouse]

I have learned (or verified my suspicions) that the system can be easily manipulated by outside sources to push an agenda. The system is tarnished/cracked and almost broken. The sheeple are on board for anything the talking heads (news "Readers) have to say. The riots are not with any real purpose but to cause a disruption in the lives of those who work every day and make the system function/. Most of those in the streets have no clue how this all works.

As to why does "T"s criminal record have any merit in this, it goes to who he was.

 

[HoughMade]

I learned that a P-11 Kel-Tec get's the job done. Oh and set up your legal defense web-site quickly.

No you didn't. It was a PF9