Train like you live

[bwframe]

Matt Jacques of Victory First talks about train like you live



[video=youtube_share;jQv7nqFhSuk]http://youtu.be/jQv7nqFhSuk[/video]

 

[VERT]

Well I for one always wear my body armor. 4 extra P mags for the pending zombie apocalypse? Light weight. .

U.S.Patriot and I were discussing this same topic at dinner tonight. He shoots with some guys that are fascinated with shooting rifles and such. Hey fun is fun! Both he feels they are neglecting their pistol skills and mental conditioning.

 

[cedartop]

He's going to shoot himself in the nads with that appendix carry.

 

[turnandshoot4]

I love how these types of threads don't get much love. I think it throws mud on the face of the "training" types. Let's be honest what most "training" is for anyone that doesn't carry a rifle for a living

FUN

Now here is the issue. If people are going to carbine classes for, well fun, doesn't that make it like a game? You know, like those gun gamers out there?
Some interesting points from the video:
1. "It is almost a weekend for guys." I totally agree with this. It IS a weekend for guys. What is better, shooting a class together or having a weekend like Hangover part 3? This doesn't help the "I'm a tactical bad ass" attitudes but it is a healthy dose of honesty.
2. "A small percentage are living that way." Yep, because those guys don't have weekend getaways for classes. They train all week.

This is a very similar video to what Kyle Defoor put out recently when he said concealed carry should be the first type of classes for citizens and carbine classes should be the last. That wasn't a very popular video in the training area here either.

Let's look at the top 5 killers of men.

1. Heart disease. Working out is much more important than any classes any of us are going to take. That $525 Kyle Defoor class would go a long way towards gym memberships or exercise equipment. If anyone here goes to gun shows they know what shape the male gun owner is in. Same goes for smoking, which contributes to heart disease.

2. Cancer. Lung cancer is at the top, cough smokers cough, with prostate behind it (no pun intended). No classes needed here! Just some will power and a finger up the butt.

3. Accidents. Here is something we can train for! No, you can't go to the uber tactical driving school to learn the pitt maneuver and how to drive out of situations where mean men want to put black bags over your heads. You need to learn to not text and drive. Also, learn how to avoid the other driver that is doing so.


I could go on but it wouldn't matter. Be safe and have fun because that's what it's all about.

 

[Jackson]

This is a very similar video to what Kyle Defoor put out recently when he said concealed carry should be the first type of classes for citizens and carbine classes should be the last. That wasn't a very popular video in the training area here either.

I seem to remember that people generally agreed with that video. I don't think there are as many unrealistic, weekend commando people here in the T&T forum as some would like to think. Most of the people who take classes tend to focus on information specifically related to concealed carry or pistol work. Sure, we see people reviewing the ocassional rifle or shotgun class, but I don't think tacticool chest rigs and high-speed rifle classes are the focus for most in this forum. The majority of training requests and training AARs in this forum are for basic pistol or concealed carry type classes.

I've also noted a number of members taking steps to improve their health and wellness in addition to their other training. I agree that health and fitness should be a primary focus for most of us, regardless of whether we carry a pistol or not. However, I also think training early and often is important for those who choose to carry. Maybe proper training and some experience in FoF scenarios could have kept Michael Dunn from getting involved in the shooting that's all over the news now. Maybe a thorough understanding of what a contact-distance gunfight looks like would have given Zimmerman second thoughts before approaching Travon Martin. Poor decisions like those make all of us look bad, and I think they are partially training issues.

I think that is the goal for most people in this forum. There are a few of us who take a rifle or shotgun class every now and then, but I believe the primary focus for most in this forum is based on the reality that they carry a gun daily and want to understand when and how to employ it. I could be wrong, though.

 

[VERT]

I will rep turnandshoot for that post. I am trying to think of how to reply without coming off as snarky. Afterall I am guilty as anyone. The first class I took (besides safety, marksmanship) was carbine. I did not know anything about how those guns worked and I was curious. Incidently I bought some cargo pants so I would have a pocket big enough to stick an extra mag. Went with a friend I met on INGO and we had a great time. I made a fool of myself and figured out real quick that I did not know squat. Thought I did since I was an accomplished marksman, but actually moving and living with a gun is different. Then my wife and I took an intro class together and that started my rethinking.

1) Pistol skills are the place to start, fundamentals are key
2) being able to shoot is only one small part
3) dont smoke or chew (I dont)
4) try to exercise (I started TaKwonDo with my son)
5) eat right (get bent I like food)
6) stop doing stupid things with stupid people in stupid places

Seems like everybody wants to learn how to jump out of helicopters. Just look at INGO and it is easy to see all the hate for the fundamentals. How much time do we devote to moving and shooting, figuring out how to tactically reload, or how to carry another Pmag. Truth is until a person masters sight alignment and trigger control, learn the controls on the gun/how it operates and developes a smooth not necessarily fast presentation it is not time to move on. Your handgun will be the firearm most likely to be with you. Not saying we might not need carbine skills (I am sure that I will do another long gun course one day) but running gun battles are not the biggest concern.

 

[turnandshoot4]

I seem to remember that people generally agreed with that video. I don't think there are as many unrealistic, weekend commando people here in the T&T forum as some would like to think. Most of the people who take classes tend to focus on information specifically related to concealed carry or pistol work. Sure, we see people reviewing the ocassional rifle or shotgun class, but I don't think tacticool chest rigs and high-speed rifle classes are the focus for most in this forum. The majority of training requests and training AARs in this forum are for basic pistol or concealed carry type classes.

I've also noted a number of members taking steps to improve their health and wellness in addition to their other training. I agree that health and fitness should be a primary focus for most of us, regardless of whether we carry a pistol or not. However, I also think training early and often is important for those who choose to carry. Maybe proper training and some experience in FoF scenarios could have kept Michael Dunn from getting involved in the shooting that's all over the news now. Maybe a thorough understanding of what a contact-distance gunfight looks like would have given Zimmerman second thoughts before approaching Travon Martin. Poor decisions like those make all of us look bad, and I think they are partially training issues.

I think that is the goal for most people in this forum. There are a few of us who take a rifle or shotgun class every now and then, but I believe the primary focus for most in this forum is based on the reality that they carry a gun daily and want to understand when and how to employ it. I could be wrong, though.

Great post. I agree that most INGO'ers in the T&T forum recognize heath as a major point of their training. At some point the basic classes have to end, though.

Serious question, should training be fun? Should anyone take a class for fun?

 

[VERT]

Great post. I agree that most INGO'ers in the T&T forum recognize heath as a major point of their training. At some point the basic classes have to end, though.

Serious question, should training be fun? Should anyone take a class for fun?

Yes it is fine for a class to be fun. Shooting is fun. I disagree with you about basic classes needing to end. I think what is legitimately consider to be the basics need to be reevaluated and defined. I also think there are some that do not have a firm grasp on the basics but think they do. What is fast enough and what is accurate enough is rather subjective and emphasis on either instead of the other is not always good. Again guilty myself.

 

[turnandshoot4]

Yes it is fine for a class to be fun. Shooting is fun. I disagree with you about basic classes needing to end. I think what is legitimately consider to be the basics need to be reevaluated and defined. I also think there are some that do not have a firm grasp on the basics but think they do. What is fast enough and what is accurate enough is rather subjective and emphasis on either instead of the other is not always good. Again guilty myself.

I wasn't clear about the basic classes. At some point we must become advanced shooters. If we don't then what good are the classes?

 

[Jackson]

Great post. I agree that most INGO'ers in the T&T forum recognize heath as a major point of their training. At some point the basic classes have to end, though.

Serious question, should training be fun? Should anyone take a class for fun?

Yes, it should be fun. I think I learn more and take more away if its fun. I take a few classes a year becuase I enjoy it. People should move beyond the basics when they are ready. Most gun owners have never taken a class and couldn't explain the fundamental things that drive accuracy, or the fundamental elements of gun handling and safety. There are many who could benefit from a basic class.

 

[VERT]

I wasn't clear about the basic classes. At some point we must become advanced shooters. If we don't then what good are the classes?

But again what is "advanced". I suppose that depends on what the objective is. Just look at the butthurt in the shooting sports forum comparing USPSA to IDPA to law enforcement training to 'tactical trainers'.

 

[VERT]

Well crud! I came home to find my wife baked brownies. Still warm from the oven. So much for watching my weight and eating right. Looks like I will train like I live and eat brownies.

 

[sgreen3]

Well crud! I came home to find my wife baked brownies. Still warm from the oven. So much for watching my weight and eating right. Looks like I will train like I live and eat brownies.

Looks like some pretty tough training

 

[kml]

Training like you live is good advice..... If you carry daily you should be able to stop at a range on your lunch break and complete a thorough practice session using only what is on your body. That is what you will most likely have if you need those skills one day. If that session reveals something you are missing, correct it. If you use something during your regular training that is too difficult to have available daily, train to live without it as you most likely won't have it when you need it.

Training is good, effective training is better, realistic training is best. They are not always the same thing.

If you have no reasonable belief that "advanced" tools and especially equipment will be needed there is no need to become "advanced". Train with the equipment you will have for scenarios you'll likely encounter. Re-enforcing those skills will serve you better than taking on things that you'll have little chance of needing. The harder you train with tools that you have no reasonable expectation of actually having, the more harm you are doing.

There was a thread a while back on INGO about what gun to use in a home hostage situation (where accuracy would be required!). In my mind the only realistic answer to that question is "what you had readily available to you last night", as that's what you'll be forced to use if that situation were to actually happen. That's not what most want to hear though.

I was looking at some carbine training programs recently and found it disappointing that EVERY ONE of the civilians taking the courses I looked at were all wearing the whole tactical Tommy kit. Kevlar helmets, throat mikes (they were operating in two person teams!), knee pads, the whole git-up! If you don't plan on wearing those things around the house that training is actually HURTING you. You are teaching yourself to use and rely on things you won't have when you need them. Now if you're SWAT or such and kit up like that for work then by all means train with that equipment but if you won't have them don't train like you will!

Even the "little" things can be big problems, I'll pick on the knee pads as an example. They can be indispensable for that type of work if that's what you do. That's why all of the "cool kid kits" have them. But if you're a homeowner taking a carbine course but don't plan on sleeping in knee pads, you really should skip them for the course. Yes, not having them will make you "slower" through the course than those with them but you are training YOU not them. If you train to be able to drop like you have pads on when there's no real chance you'll be wearing them if those skills are needed you're putting yourself at a disadvantage. Try a full speed, full force drop without them once!

I have NO issue with someone taking a course like that, I was looking because I was thinking about it, but if I go, It'll be jeans and a long sleeve shirt at most. Sweat pants and a tee shirt would be more realistic for me but doubt the trainer would allow it!

Yes, there is a chance anyone may get caught ill prepared but I believe that to purposely train with things you have no remote chance of having is not wise.

 

[GIJEW]

Training like you live is good advice..... If you carry daily you should be able to stop at a range on your lunch break and complete a thorough practice session using only what is on your body. That is what you will most likely have if you need those skills one day. If that session reveals something you are missing, correct it. If you use something during your regular training that is too difficult to have available daily, train to live without it as you most likely won't have it when you need it.

Training is good, effective training is better, realistic training is best. They are not always the same thing.

If you have no reasonable belief that "advanced" tools and especially equipment will be needed there is no need to become "advanced". Train with the equipment you will have for scenarios you'll likely encounter. Re-enforcing those skills will serve you better than taking on things that you'll have little chance of needing. The harder you train with tools that you have no reasonable expectation of actually having, the more harm you are doing.

There was a thread a while back on INGO about what gun to use in a home hostage situation (where accuracy would be required!). In my mind the only realistic answer to that question is "what you had readily available to you last night", as that's what you'll be forced to use if that situation were to actually happen. That's not what most want to hear though.

I was looking at some carbine training programs recently and found it disappointing that EVERY ONE of the civilians taking the courses I looked at were all wearing the whole tactical Tommy kit. Kevlar helmets, throat mikes (they were operating in two person teams!), knee pads, the whole git-up! If you don't plan on wearing those things around the house that training is actually HURTING you. You are teaching yourself to use and rely on things you won't have when you need them. Now if you're SWAT or such and kit up like that for work then by all means train with that equipment but if you won't have them don't train like you will!

Even the "little" things can be big problems, I'll pick on the knee pads as an example. They can be indispensable for that type of work if that's what you do. That's why all of the "cool kid kits" have them. But if you're a homeowner taking a carbine course but don't plan on sleeping in knee pads, you really should skip them for the course. Yes, not having them will make you "slower" through the course than those with them but you are training YOU not them. If you train to be able to drop like you have pads on when there's no real chance you'll be wearing them if those skills are needed you're putting yourself at a disadvantage. Try a full speed, full force drop without them once!

I have NO issue with someone taking a course like that, I was looking because I was thinking about it, but if I go, It'll be jeans and a long sleeve shirt at most. Sweat pants and a tee shirt would be more realistic for me but doubt the trainer would allow it!

Yes, there is a chance anyone may get caught ill prepared but I believe that to purposely train with things you have no remote chance of having is not wise.

BULLSEYE! However, I'd cut the "weekend commandos" a little slack on bringing the "tactical tommy kit" to a carbine class. Unless their carbine is their primary HD weapon (instead of say, a shotgun), the only time they'd use it in a fight, is in one that they expected. That could be TEOTWAKI, "just" a riot, etc. Still, it would be wise to train without the bells and whistles too for all the reasons you mentioned--and if theirs breaks, they won't be able to just get another from the armory. FWIW there was a time, not so long ago, when ACOGs/red-dots, knee-pads, throat-mikes, etc weren't available to anybody!

 

[Killion]

never mind

 

[VERT]

Just for the record, I don't own a home defense shotgun. I do have one AR and have taken a couple introductory carbine courses. That was with my old, borrowed AR with iron sights and sling. Once I set up my own carbine I added the things I wanted. Rifle, buis, aimpoint, light, sling

 

[GIJEW]

Just for the record, I don't own a home defense shotgun. I do have one AR and have taken a couple introductory carbine courses. That was with my old, borrowed AR with iron sights and sling. Once I set up my own carbine I added the things I wanted. Rifle, buis, aimpoint, light, sling

All well and good. No quarrel with putting an aimpoint and light on your primary HD long gun (or secondary one either). What kml was saying, and I agreed on, is not to be DEPENDENT on them. Kudos for also training with a "stock" carbine

 

[cedartop]

BULLSEYE! .y. FWIW there was a time, not so long ago, when ACOGs/red-dots, knee-pads, throat-mikes, etc weren't available to anybody!

There was a day that the modern automobile or self contained smokeless powder cartridges weren't available either. Should we not use or rely on those things then?

 

[cedartop]

.

.

There was a thread a while back on INGO about what gun to use in a home hostage situation (where accuracy would be required!). In my mind the only realistic answer to that question is "what you had readily available to you last night", as that's what you'll be forced to use if that situation were to actually happen. That's not what most want to hear though.

I was looking at some carbine training programs recently and found it disappointing that EVERY ONE of the civilians taking the courses I looked at were all wearing the whole tactical Tommy kit. Kevlar helmets, throat mikes (they were operating in two person teams!), knee pads, the whole git-up! If you don't plan on wearing those things around the house that training is actually HURTING you. You are teaching yourself to use and rely on things you won't have when you need them. Now if you're SWAT or such and kit up like that for work then by all means train with that equipment but if you won't have them don't train like you will!

Even the "little" things can be big problems, I'll pick on the knee pads as an example. They can be indispensable for that type of work if that's what you do. That's why all of the "cool kid kits" have them. But if you're a homeowner taking a carbine course but don't plan on sleeping in knee pads, you really should skip them for the course. Yes, not having them will make you "slower" through the course than those with them but you are training YOU not them. If you train to be able to drop like you have pads on when there's no real chance you'll be wearing them if those skills are needed you're putting yourself at a disadvantage. Try a full speed, full force drop without them once!

I have NO issue with someone taking a course like that, I was looking because I was thinking about it, but if I go, It'll be jeans and a long sleeve shirt at most. Sweat pants and a tee shirt would be more realistic for me but doubt the trainer would allow it!

Yes, there is a chance anyone may get caught ill prepared but I believe that to purposely train with things you have no remote chance of having is not wise.

It varies of course, but most of the non-leo or .mil guys in my classes have not been fully kitted out.

The last class I attended with a carbine. Not a whole lot of "kit" going on. Should I not wear the 5.11 pants because they are more comfortable than my jeans?