Propane shortage

[indyjohn]

If you are going with propane, get a tank large enough that you only have to fill it up once a year and you can do that on cheaper summer full rates. Also, owning your own tank allows you to buy anywhere and also get cheaper rates.

I'm planning on 1,000 gal tank x2. It will be tough to afford, but that's what I'm going for.

Still looking for propane per gallon prices compared to last year.

 

[wagyu52]

Everything is 180 from last year, cash price is flat and hasn't went up at all since the end of summer. Prepay, budget and summer buying was really not much of a benefit this year and maybe even a loss, depending on how you look at it. Our budget is $1.93, prepay was a $1.83 and current cash price is $1.69. I've never seen this before, ever. Winter price is always $.20 to over a dollar higher.
Be careful of buried tanks, there is a lot of unseen maintenance that go with them. Anode bags that take the corrosion away from the tanks must be changed regularly and the valves and regulator are under ground a susceptible to flooding and freezing. They are also 2x more expensive than an above ground tank.

 

[Hammer]

Last fill up I had which was this summer was $1.58 per gallon.

 

[dusty88]

I don't know what our price is yet this year. We had a fillup in October of 2013 and haven't needed any yet. We went geothermal in 2012 and only use a bit of propane now for some water heating. Geothermal is expensive up front but definitely worth it compared to LP.

 

[indyjohn]

Everything is 180 from last year, cash price is flat and hasn't went up at all since the end of summer. Prepay, budget and summer buying was really not much of a benefit this year and maybe even a loss, depending on how you look at it. Our budget is $1.93, prepay was a $1.83 and current cash price is $1.69. I've never seen this before, ever. Winter price is always $.20 to over a dollar higher.
Be careful of buried tanks, there is a lot of unseen maintenance that go with them. Anode bags that take the corrosion away from the tanks must be changed regularly and the valves and regulator are under ground a susceptible to flooding and freezing. They are also 2x more expensive than an above ground tank.

I was led to believe putting the tank underground was to solve flow issues in very cold weather? Why not put them in a concrete bunker 10' below grade?

I don't know what our price is yet this year. We had a fillup in October of 2013 and haven't needed any yet. We went geothermal in 2012 and only use a bit of propane now for some water heating. Geothermal is expensive up front but definitely worth it compared to LP.

I'm very interested to hear about your experience with selecting & installing a Geothermal system.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

I was led to believe putting the tank underground was to solve flow issues in very cold weather? Why not put them in a concrete bunker 10' below grade?



I'm very interested to hear about your experience with selecting & installing a Geothermal system.

I can't speak for Dusty but we put in a geothermal 2-3 years ago. There seems to be 2 favorites around. Water Furnace and Climate Master (I think it is). We selected the latter. They're quite expensive. It all depends on how many tons of heating/cooling you need. But expect to pay somewhere between $10-20K. The good news is, at least when we put ours in, the .gov gave us a 30% tax credit and our REMC gave us about a $1000 credit to help defray the costs.

Beyond that, ask away...

 

[indyjohn]

I can't speak for Dusty but we put in a geothermal 2-3 years ago. There seems to be 2 favorites around. Water Furnace and Climate Master (I think it is). We selected the latter. They're quite expensive. It all depends on how many tons of heating/cooling you need. But expect to pay somewhere between $10-20K. The good news is, at least when we put ours in, the .gov gave us a 30% tax credit and our REMC gave us about a $1000 credit to help defray the costs.

Beyond that, ask away...

Climate Master refers to it as a 'Heat Pump'. But geothermal is different because you're exchanging heat/cool with the ground and not the air. Right?
Is the only electricity used by this system for running a fan? Maybe the pump to circulate the water? Can both be handled by a 500-750 watt 20A 120V circuit?
How much area in the yard is needed for the pipe array?
What ongoing maintenance is required? Can it be performed by you/moderately competent do-it-yourselfer?

That's right out of the gate. I have a coworker who's parents bought one in an effort to "go completely off the grid". Not in a position to ask coworker how they intended to do that.

 

[dusty88]

Climate Master refers to it as a 'Heat Pump'. But geothermal is different because you're exchanging heat/cool with the ground and not the air. Right?

With the caveat that I'm not a mechanical person (in the least).... it is my understanding that the "pump" system does bear a lot of general similarities to a regular heat pump. It's just that unlike a regular heat pump you are only heating/cooling from a more moderate temperature (the liquid that is circulating through the ground, which averages something closer to 50 degrees).

Is the only electricity used by this system for running a fan? Maybe the pump to circulate the water? Can both be handled by a 500-750 watt 20A 120V circuit?

It's been over 3 years since I researched, so I can't remember the numbers but it takes some real "juice" to get the geothermal system to kick on, then it uses little electricity once it is actually running. If you just hooked it up to a generator, you need a lot of amps to get it started. There is however some kind of stepdown switch to allow using them with generators.

How much area in the yard is needed for the pipe array?

it depends
You can use a very small area with the "boring" system, but the "trenching" system is cheaper. I have pics I can post to show you. We have plenty of land so we just had them trench along the edge of the woods.
It was funny when I got an estimate from a company based in Zionsville. Their normal pitch was for "boring". The salesperson was a 20-some year old who gave his usual talk about messing up the yard with trenching and they wouldn't even suggest it as an option. I felt like rolling my eyes while pointing him to look out our window, and point out we were surrounded by woods and farmland.

I did speak with someone who lived in a subdivision bordering a golf course, and they regretted "trenching" because it took a lot of work to make the yard look better again.

What ongoing maintenance is required? Can it be performed by you/moderately competent do-it-yourselfer?

I don't know, as we are lousy DIY people. The HVAC company we used has a good deal for ongoing twice yearly servicing that maintains a lifetime warranty, so we use that. It doesn't look any more complicated to me than other modern systems, but I know they were very concerned about someone shutting off the water or doing anything else with the system. They asked us that if anyone else worked on the water, etc that they be called for advice first. (the water coming into the water heater loops through the geothermal system first, so the water heater has little work to do)

That's right out of the gate. I have a coworker who's parents bought one in an effort to "go completely off the grid". Not in a position to ask coworker how they intended to do that.

That isn't the way I'd go off the grid, though it's saved us a lot of utility cost. I think if "off grid" you would still use significant generator power.

Anyway, our summer bills are definitely lower than with the previous AC
In fall and spring, when "some" heat is required, our electricity bill is even lower than it was when we used LP. In other words, the geothermal system heats and blows the fan for less than the previous furnace just blew the air around. (we had a 19 yr old furnace prior to that, supposedly high efficiency)

The severe winter weather is far, far cheaper to handle and water heating costs are much lower as well.

I spoke with probably a dozen people before we made our decision. These were some factors:
- we have a large home. The more heat/cooling you do , the more it saves you. It also costs more in a larger home though (based on the main pump unit capacity)
- we had LP, natural gas isn't available. So our heating costs were rather high. Easier to save money from there.
-our AC had died, and our furnace was 19 yrs old. So we were comparing the cost of geothermal to the cost of replacing a system that was fully depreciated out. If your current equipment still has useful life, it's a lot harder to justify.
- as others told us, the heating in the house is far more even. I didn't really believe that in advance, but the geothermal runs warm, not bursts of hot air. So every part of the house is more "average". Other people said they were able to get rid of space heaters, etc.

I think the 30% tax credit is still in effect.

 

[goldtrigger]

That's great! What was the contract price?

If I recall correctly, it was $2.15 per gallon.
Their current rate is the same. I've been happy with the service.
It's CoAlliance out of their Martinsville branch. I think their headquarters is in Plainfield.

 

[dusty88]

Here are some pics. Note that we had the "trenching" 500 ft out from the house, because we have room for it. If you have a smaller yard, they use a "boring" technique where they bury pipes within a 4x8' area. That adds about $2K, and we didn't need it done that way.

Where pipes enter basement:

Transition to geo pump area:

Actual unit is about the same size as our previous furnace, runs quietly, and works for both heating and cooling: (there is no outside AC unit needed)

White tubing shown here takes water from the geo unit (so that water heater is heating from "warm" now not from cold water tank)

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Dusty pretty well covered everything. Here are just a few additional comments:

Yeah, the two names I gave you were brand names. Our main system had given out so we had to replace it with something. All of your outdoor equipment goes away with a geothermal. Your compressor, air handler, ground water coolant pump(s), etc. all are now indoors.

I was worried about noise as ours was going into a basement utility room. But it's about equivalent to a refrigerator when it's running. It takes up just slightly more room as a "normal" heatpump type mechanical setup.

I never measured the starting and running current but I don't think you'd be able to run it off of a 7500 watt generator.

We put in a trench system and it looks like it's exactly like Dusty's. They called it a 6-pipe system. IIRC, there are 3 out and 3 return lines per run. Our system required 2 runs as I believe there is a maximum run length. Also, the type of soil and the amount of cooling/heating capacity dictates the total run length required.

It does take larger air filters that are more expensive than the 1", 24x24" things you might be used to. But you don't have to change them as often.

Unlike a air-sourced heat pump, I have not needed the backup heat to stay warm. Last year when it got so cold, I turned the breakers on one night. But the next morning, I thought screw it, let's see what it can do and turned them back off. I made it the rest of the winter running without the backup electrical heaters.

If you decide to buy the water heat option, our guy was glad that we already had two water heaters. He said it performed better that way. They replumbed one (the one the geo unit ties into) to be in series with the other. I turned the circuit breakers off on the former and we've had plenty of hot water. (Though my wife swears that after 4 showers and 2-3 loads of laundry) we don't. )

ETA: I am of the understanding that the investment you make in your ground loops will last over more than your initial mechanical system. That's a fair cost of the installation. And there's 2 types of pumping systems. They make a pressurized system (which is the most common) and a "pull" type where the fluid is pulled through the loop. They were pushing that latter one when we bought ours so we decided to go with it. So far, so good.

 

[wagyu52]

I was led to believe putting the tank underground was to solve flow issues in very cold weather? Why not put them in a concrete bunker 10' below grade?

Even at -30 a 1000 gallon tank is still capable of vaporizing about 425,000 BTU, can't see that being a problem around here. An underground tank would have an advantage in that the LP is stored at ground temperature and would have less shrink than above ground in the winter but you would lose some in the summer, kind of a wash.
The people I know that have underground tanks are for ascetic reasons only. For the price difference you can buy a lot of landscaping.

 

[ghitch75]

geothermal are all fun and games till the compressor takes a dump.....most only have a 5 year warranty on the compressor which is the heart of the unit............water to air and air to air heatpumps use the same compressor's.............all 90+ LP gas furnaces have a life time heat exchanger warranty which is the heart of the unit.......i have changed all lot of geothermal compressors that where only 6 to 10 years old........

not trying to start trouble just telling what i have learned in over 30 years of HVAC work.....

 

[IndyGunworks]

For the price I just don't think Geothermal is where it needs to be in order to be in a persons conversation that is on a budget.

 

[dusty88]

For the price I just don't think Geothermal is where it needs to be in order to be in a persons conversation that is on a budget.

Our results so far match what we projected. Because we needed a new system anyway, our payoff time was only a couple of years.

 

[indyjohn]

Thank you so much, GFGT & dusty. This is an exceptional amount of information.

However, this comment pretty much kills the deal for me.

I never measured the starting and running current but I don't think you'd be able to run it off of a 7500 watt generator.

I am trying to design a reasonably affordable compound that can sustain itself for a long period of time. How long is still unknown. Right now my generator is @ 7500 watts, as IGW has found, when you go above that your entry price jumps significantly. If I ever change the genny spec to 13Kw, the geothermal system can come back into consideration.

 

[indyjohn]

Even at -30 a 1000 gallon tank is still capable of vaporizing about 425,000 BTU, can't see that being a problem around here. An underground tank would have an advantage in that the LP is stored at ground temperature and would have less shrink than above ground in the winter but you would lose some in the summer, kind of a wash.
The people I know that have underground tanks are for ascetic reasons only. For the price difference you can buy a lot of landscaping.

My real reason for putting the tanks underground is for security. I've received comments that flow 'can' be a concern in cold weather. I don't have any first hand experience.

 

[IndyGunworks]

for a long term prep, the only option is going to be wood. Put a freestanding wood stove in the middle of the main living space. If you run out of propane then the family can live in the warm room.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

for a long term prep, the only option is going to be wood. Put a freestanding wood stove in the middle of the main living space. If you run out of propane then the family can live in the warm room.

Yeah. Depending on how strictly you're defining self-sustainment, you need to be able to get your own heat when the LP runs out, if the truck drivers go on strike, or there's a pipeline problem that cuts off natural gas, etc.

But then again, there's a matter of access to firewood, being able to cut it, split it, haul it, etc.

 

[Lee11b]

hate to say it IndyGunworks, your right about wood is the best long term prep. Readily available, and renewable. However, as I've aged; cutting, splitting, stacking and hauling just isn't as fun as when I was in my 20's