Propane shortage

[IndyGunworks]

hate to say it IndyGunworks, your right about wood is the best long term prep. Readily available, and renewable. However, as I've aged; cutting, splitting, stacking and hauling just isn't as fun as when I was in my 20's

Any problem can be solved by throwing money at it.... Want long term survival off grid, but don't want to have to change your lifestyle or work your ass off to make it work? Then spend 50,000 dollars and build yourself 10 years of propane storage and a ridiculous solar array.

There is always going to be a toss up between convenience, luxury, work/effort, and cost. Finding that balance is where its at. I have been there thinking I could put up a solar aray to run a geothermal and have heat w/out much effort. its possible, but its going to be 20, for the geo, and another 30 for enough solar and storage to run it. Not to mention to have heat you need everything mechanical to work.... Not so much with burning wood in a fireplace and using the radiant heat to heat enough space to get by.

 

[Lee11b]

found the best way to store it though....an old round grain dryer on my grandma's farm. Steel, with those half moon slots cut in. Stored red oak and hickory in it 18+ years ago. Had to move the wood, when the farm was sold. That wood was solid!!! almost kiln dried quality!!!! A friend of mine bought it (has propane, got hosed last winter) says it is almost burning as good as his coal. He is only using a piece an hour

We've enjoyed a wood pellet stove for the last 4 years. Buy them by the ton, early, like August, save 15%. Pellets are easy and very hassle free. 40# bag lasts us almost 18 hours

Our stove is kind of unique though. No Chinese parts like all the "American" stoves have. My father in law made ours in Czech 4 years ago. QUIET!!! blower is made in Switzerland, exhaust motor made in Germany. It has a 40# hopper, press a button for ignition, and it is so efficient running on 240 volts

 

[indyjohn]

for a long term prep, the only option is going to be wood. Put a freestanding wood stove in the middle of the main living space. If you run out of propane then the family can live in the warm room.

That is part of the plan.

Yeah. Depending on how strictly you're defining self-sustainment, you need to be able to get your own heat when the LP runs out, if the truck drivers go on strike, or there's a pipeline problem that cuts off natural gas, etc.

But then again, there's a matter of access to firewood, being able to cut it, split it, haul it, etc.

See below.

Any problem can be solved by throwing children at it.... .

FTFY.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

That is part of the plan.



See below.

Any problem can be solved by throwing children at it.... ./QUOTE]

FTFY.

LOL! Yeah that's true. Problem with kids is that by the time you get to the age where you really need their help is that they've grown up and moved out.

 

[dusty88]

Thank you so much, GFGT & dusty. This is an exceptional amount of information.

However, this comment pretty much kills the deal for me.


I am trying to design a reasonably affordable compound that can sustain itself for a long period of time. How long is still unknown. Right now my generator is @ 7500 watts, as IGW has found, when you go above that your entry price jumps significantly. If I ever change the genny spec to 13Kw, the geothermal system can come back into consideration.

Don't despair.

There is a switch you can install. If I remember it's called something like Intelli-start. It reduces the startup wattage. I had an estimate on it once, but we haven't followed through yet. Anyway, that's not the issue it used to be.

 

[dusty88]

and as far as "long term" and wood burning....

We have a neighbor who tried to heat his house regularly with a woodburner. Even though he has plenty of woods, the chore grew so cumbersome he quit completely and went back to his furnace. An additional issue was that he was tearing up some land because if he didn't have enough set back he had to drive the truck places you would prefer not to go when it is muddy.

We have wood as a backup, but I wouldn't look forward to using it 100% of the time.

Let me repeat the "rocket mass heater". I'll look for more detailed links tomorrow. They aren't meant to heat 4000 square feet in the style we are used to , but they'll keep a smaller area warm for a LONG time on a very tiny amount of wood.

 

[wagyu52]

My real reason for putting the tanks underground is for security. I've received comments that flow 'can' be a concern in cold weather. I don't have any first hand experience.

By flow I'm assuming you mean vaporization. No, you Wouldnt get any flow benefit under ground. What do you mean by security?

 

[indyjohn]

By flow I'm assuming you mean vaporization. No, you would get no flow benefit under ground. What do you mean by security?

I don't know. I am very LP ignorant, trying to learn. My Stepdad cautioned me about LP in very cold temps and related a story of a friend who had problems because of very cold weather. I have no first had experience here.

So, you're saying that if my tanks are below grade and due to ground temp are not as cold as surface air temp, I would not see a benefit?

When I refer to security I am referring to two things: protection against theft and protection against vandalism. I don't want anyone stealing my gas and I don't want anyone shooting at my tank.

 

[dusty88]

I don't know. I am very LP ignorant, trying to learn. My Stepdad cautioned me about LP in very cold temps and related a story of a friend who had problems because of very cold weather. I have no first had experience here.

So, you're saying that if my tanks are below grade and due to ground temp are not as cold as surface air temp, I would not see a benefit?

When I refer to security I am referring to two things: protection against theft and protection against vandalism. I don't want anyone stealing my gas and I don't want anyone shooting at my tank.

I must admit that in terms of zombie apocalypse concerns I had not thought about the LP tank

I guess LP tanks do have those handles (I broke my arm as a kid by hooking my wrist in one of those.... but I digress). But if someone wants to vandalize it, I would think your bigger risk is the line, etc. The more likely risk is if things are that ugly, you run out of LP fills anyway. I never want to discourage smart preparation, though, so maybe that's something I just haven't thought about much.

 

[indyjohn]

I must admit that in terms of zombie apocalypse concerns I had not thought about the LP tank

I guess LP tanks do have those handles (I broke my arm as a kid by hooking my wrist in one of those.... but I digress). But if someone wants to vandalize it, I would think your bigger risk is the line, etc. The more likely risk is if things are that ugly, you run out of LP fills anyway. I never want to discourage smart preparation, though, so maybe that's something I just haven't thought about much.

I appreciate your comment about the line. That tells me the line needs to be buried from tank underground through foundation into basement.

My general idea is running an LP genny part time off of two 1,000 gal tanks gives one family a reasonable amount of time to convert their way of living back to pioneer times. If they've prepped well. I don't know, just an idea. IGW is right on. Wood will become your ~only~ source of fuel.

 

[Lee11b]

there is a benefit to having tanks buried underground if you have "summer" mixed propane in the tank

 

[wagyu52]

there is a benefit to having tanks buried underground if you have "summer" mixed propane in the tank

WTF is "summer" mix propane?

 

[Lee11b]

If the propane has too much ethane in the mix / it preforms poorly at 0 degrees F

 

[indyjohn]

there is a benefit to having tanks buried underground if you have "summer" mixed propane in the tank

Oh thanks. Introduce another variable to a technology I have no idea about...

 

[Lee11b]

propane is not pure like natural gas is / in fact propane is removed from natural gas when in comes out of the ground

 

[bwframe]

I have never heard of summer mix propane. For many years I bought propane (at it's cheapest) in the heat of early summer.

 

[Lee11b]

wagyu52 have you ever heard of the farmer liting a fire under the propane tank (HIGHLY advise DON'T try this at HOME) to get the propane warmer in the tank?

 

[indyjohn]

propane is not pure like natural gas is / in fact propane is removed from natural gas when in comes out of the ground

It's all a learning curve my friend. I could Google it or learn it here. This is more entertaining.

 

[Lee11b]

knew a hog farmer, who had put a state of the art grain dryer in / had 2 forty foot long, semi tank trailers of propane / 9 years ago, very wet fall

had 27 trucks of his grain, the ground had finally froze, but big snow storm coming in 2nd week of Nov. He was going to dry his grain in his grain dryer. Dryer lit on first stage, 2nd suppose to roar.....

SUMMER PROPANE!!!!! too much ethane in the mix, dryer would literally almost die. He called his plumber out, they proceeded to literally dump 2/3 of that forty foot propane semi tank....and didn't get too much grain dried that evening/morning. One very pissed off hog farmer called his propane supplier at 0801am (because the propane supplier didn't take "emergency" calls until 8am)

supplier responded that the "CHEAP" mix he bought in August, must have had too much ethane in the mix

now that hog farmer paid to have a 3" plastic gas main ran almost 4 miles to his property, with a 2" main to that beloved grain dryer and a 2" feed to the 5,000+ hog barns for heat

and the whole time I was plumbing in that 10000# tub NATURAL GAS mtr to that beloved grain dryer, that hog farmer was asking about the properties of natural gas

I had to reassure that hog farmer at least 50 times that NATURAL GAS only liquefies at -260 degrees F I told him hell would freeze over before he had problems with the natural gas.

 

[wagyu52]

Are you trying to get to 50 post?