Predict the 1st Banning for uncivil behavior in the new Religious Threads...

[mbills2223]

I will retire to observation and occasional simple response in this thread since apologetics is an area in which I'm neither well-versed nor do I find pleasure in its practice. I do enjoy reading others, though, so I should probably stick with that.

Good stuff in here.

 

[BugI02]

That it would make everybody happy? No. I don't. As I've already explained, it was all in jest. Even PaulF got that much.

There is one aspect of Catholicism I'd like to discuss, however.

With polytheistic religions, Hindu, Norse, Greco/Roman, etc., you tend to have one big daddy god and then a bunch of lower gods and demigods. Those lower gods tended to get assigned little snippets of daily human life and natural phenomena to rule over: i.e., the god of the sun, the god of the hearth, the goddess of childbirth, the goddess of the harvest, etc., etc. Some polytheistic religions got pretty involved with whole hierarchies of different levels of divine beings with all manner of names for the various rankings. As these gods bore the divine authority over those aspects of life and nature, it made sense that humans would pray directly to them as they had agency to act on the prayer's behalf.

With Catholicism, you don't just get the holy trinity, but also the holy see, with all of its corporeal authority. And with that authority comes the adoration, veneration, beatification, and eventual canonization of saints. Many saints, as I have come to know of them, are given patronage duties. Saint Christopher, the patron saint of travellers. Saint Jerome, the patron saint of librarians, etc., etc., and Catholics pray directly to these human souls who have entered Heaven, according to Mother Church. But why? The saints are not themselves gods. They do not receive agency to act on the mortal plain. They act as intercessors only. If I were a Catholic teenager and were being bullied, I have a choice, I can pray to god, that he do something about the bullies, or I can pray to Saint Mungo, the patron saint of those afflicted by bullies and verbal abuse to take my prayers to god for me. I guess Catholicism likes middlemen.

Here's my point. Regardless of the details of the religion, agency versus intercessation, divinity versus sainthood, I can see no meaningful, operational, functional distinction bet the idolatry of saints in Catholicism and the idolatry of pagan gods in polytheism. There does seem to be something more of the human in the Catholic saint system, whereas the pagan systems seem to be more naturalistic. There may not be a patron saint of trees, but I'm sure somewhere there's a patron saint of arborists and another for lumberjacks, so depending on whether you wanted to make the trees healthy or make them into furniture, you might have to pick your prayer intercessor with more care than just praying to Vertumnus and Pomona, the god and goddess of fruit trees.

Argued seemingly as a believer in nothing. I doubt it would sway you to be reminded that the patriarch of the catholic church was given his mandate by Christ himself. They may have lost their way in some manner with the veneration of saints but there is still quite a difference between them and idolators and animists

 

[mbills2223]

Argued seemingly as a believer in nothing. I doubt it would sway you to be reminded that the patriarch of the catholic church was given his mandate by Christ himself. They may have lost their way in some manner with the veneration of saints but there is still quite a difference between them and idolators and animists

Matthew 16:18 for those that would like a source.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Never played high school football, didja?

I did. We said the Lord's prayer.

 

[hoosierdoc]

Argued seemingly as a believer in nothing. I doubt it would sway you to be reminded that the patriarch of the catholic church was given his mandate by Christ himself. They may have lost their way in some manner with the veneration of saints but there is still quite a difference between them and idolators and animists

Did you know Lutheran Chrch Missouri Synod believes the papacy fulfills the prophecy of the antichrist?

Statement of the Doctrinal Position of the LCMS - The Lutheran Church?Missouri Synod

As to the Antichrist we teach that the prophecies of the Holy Scriptures concerning the Antichrist, 2 Thess. 2:3-12; 1 John 2:18, have been fulfilled in the Pope of Rome and his dominion. All the features of the Antichrist as drawn in these prophecies, including the most abominable and horrible ones, for example, that the Antichrist "as God sitteth in the temple of God," 2 Thess. 2:4; that he anathematizes the very heart of the Gospel of Christ, that is, the doctrine of the forgiveness of sins by grace alone, for Christ's sake alone, through faith alone, without any merit or worthiness in man (Rom. 3:20-28; Gal. 2:16); that he recognizes only those as members of the Christian Church who bow to his authority; and that, like a deluge, he had inundated the whole Church with his antichristian doctrines till God revealed him through the Reformation

— these very features are the outstanding characteristics of the Papacy. (Cf. Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 515, Paragraphs 39-41; p. 401, Paragraph 45; M. pp. 336, 258.) Hence we subscribe to the statement of our Confessions that the Pope is "the very Antichrist." (Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 475, Paragraph 10; M., p. 308.)

from the book of Concord if you choose to read 1530s thinking

http://bookofconcord.org/treatise.php

 

[BugI02]

Did you know Lutheran Chrch Missouri Synod believes the papacy fulfills the prophecy of the antichrist?

Statement of the Doctrinal Position of the LCMS - The Lutheran Church?Missouri Synod





from the book of Concord if you choose to read 1530s thinking

Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope - Book of Concord

There is little that men believe that can surprise me anymore. I am old and jaded. But I'm pretty sure that Obama is the antichrist, so that would make them in error.

 

[hoosierdoc]

There is little that men believe that can surprise me anymore. I am old and jaded. But I'm pretty sure that Obama is the antichrist, so that would make them in error.

Bear in mind this was probably still a time where Catholics had to pay indulgences to the Church to get their loved one into heaven.

 

[ATM]

I was told that the authors of the bible were writing what the Holy Spirit told them to write. Being stupid humans as we are, they couldn't get everything right because you can't describe the Holy Spirit with mere words. So there are SOME falsities.

Wow. No sense thinking through anything that might initially seem incredulous or inconvenient. Call it an error, blame it on someone and move along to some easier portion, right?

All they handed you was an excuse to doubt, free from the labor of further studying the matter to its conclusion. It is for you to decline or accept such a "gift".

 

[CathyInBlue]

Argued seemingly as a believer in nothing.

Well, you can try to belittle my beliefs, or you can help me understand yours a bit better, or am I to glean the whole of my understanding of Catholicism from Kevin Smith'sDogma?

I doubt it would sway you to be reminded that the patriarch of the catholic church was given his mandate by Christ himself.

Matthew 16:18 for those that would like a source.

Yes, yes, "Thou art Peter and upon this [petra] shall I build my church." Heard it plenty in my old Baptist church. And then there's the 2000 years of history since that day that includes the Protestant Reformation, the Lutheran Church (I know Martin Luther died a devout Catholic.), the Thirty Years' War, right up to the Irish Republican Army, all predicated on the same essential scism as Shia and Sunni Islam.

They may have lost their way in some manner with the veneration of saints but there is still quite a difference between them and idolators and animists

Great! Excellent! Glad to hear it!

…. What is it? The difference.

 

[CathyInBlue]

Did you know Lutheran Church Missouri Synod believes the papacy fulfills the prophecy of the antichrist?

As I said, every man's sacred truth is another man's blasphemy. The only trick is to find the right blasphemer for each true believer.

 

[IndyDave1776]

If they are all one why does Jesus talk to his father?

The corporeal ministry of Christ was to teach those who would have faith His ways--to stand as an example. As such, there were things he did not to fulfill his own needs (i.e., do you really think God needs to eat, drink, or work?) but rather to teach an example to those following Him.

 

[oldpink]

Reported!

 

[IndyDave1776]

Reported!

Thank you for noticing!

 

[CathyInBlue]

Reported. Aborted. Contorted. And deported.

Sorry. Was channelling my inner Arlo.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Reported. Aborted. Contorted. And deported.

Sorry. Was channelling my inner Arlo.

As long as you don't mean it literally--that sounds painful!

 

[bmbutch]

The concept of the Trinity is necessary to reconcile inconsistencies.

While I will admit some things are harder to understand for me, I've yet to find a "proposed inconsistency" that can't be explained through study & prayer, YMMV.

Back to work tomorrow, I'm guessing this thread will have grown quite large by my next extended visit.

 

[BugI02]

Great! Excellent! Glad to hear it!

…. What is it? The difference.[/QUOTE]

They are monotheistic and base the bedrock of their religion on Christ the redeemer. By the way, I'm not catholic. My own beliefs are somewhat more nuanced .

 

[Harleyrider_50]

Interest'n......
?.....where'na hell's all'ese.....'entity's'......in cases like this'n.....an' ALOT more jus' like it.....
Body of missing Monroe Co. girl found - wave3.com-Louisville News, Weather & Sports

can anybody answer 'at ?.......an' save all'a " the (insert yer choice here....) had a better plan..."
cuzzz.....at's horsesh**.....

 

[Doug]

Interest'n......
?.....where'na hell's all'ese.....'entity's'......in cases like this'n.....an' ALOT more jus' like it.....
Body of missing Monroe Co. girl found - wave3.com-Louisville News, Weather & Sports

can anybody answer 'at ?.......an' save all'a " the (insert yer choice here....) had a better plan..."
cuzzz.....at's horsesh**.....

Yeah, wall itz kander lak y' get kno ret t' spect eny gud 'tall n th evel werld. Watchoo e'er dun t mak 'n gud?

 

[Dead Duck]

Free will's a B****!